Tempest

lol those aren't facts, thats innuendo at best. You have to wonder if this is a similar unnamed source that the Boston Herald found for its story on the Patriots taping the Rams super bowl walk through back in 2002.

I will challenge people to come up with facts because there is so far an incredible lack of it. Still looking for that one word from Shockey saying he wants out. If all anyone can find is that unnamed source or a friend of a friend, well then someone help Goodall find that tape.

Seriously, take a look at Chad Johnson for example. Is there any question in anyone's mind where he stands?

Wow, either Pat Hanlon has gotten much better at giving hand jobs or everyone's still drunk from the super bowl.

If Snee wants it, then give it to him. He has been The Force on the right side of the line. The only thing Whimper has done to impress me is stay on the roster.

Apparently Snee wants a Leonard Davis/Steve Hutchinson deal. IMO thats too much for ANY G and Snee is certainly not on Hutchinsons level. THis could be a precursor to the possibility of Snee leaving. The coaching staff likes Whimper a lot and project him as one of the Tackles at some point. I have to agree as although Whimper playes very sparingly I was impressed this pre season with his athleticsm and size, he also showed some good footwork in the game he playe when Diehl cramped up. Diehl allows for so many options on things that could happen. Snee leaves he can slide to G and Whimper to T, MCkeenzie leaves and he can slide to RT and Whimper to LT. Great signing.

I'm amazed how this thread has warped from rational arguments either for or against trading Shockey to posts with very little fact and plenty of opinion. I think its really sad to see so many posts telling Shockey to STFU when he has said absolutely nothing this past season. With all the talk since the super bowl about Shockey getting traded, not wanting to be here, etc. Maybe people need to start following their own advice.

Now Shockey hasn't said a single word about this, not one. If anyone is foolish to believe the team is better off without Shockey, then by all means trade him. The price before and during the draft was Harper and the second round pick, now its a 2009 first round and a fourth that is conditional because if Shockey has his typical season; it gets upgraded to a second round pick. Now that is deal truly worthy of the kind of player Jeremy Shockey is.

No Giant Shocker

THE 2008 Giants draft list contains seven names and no one can be sure if it's a class to remember or forget. Still, it is not too soon to already stamp the Giants as big winners after this weekend's talent grab-bag simply because they did not trade away Jeremy Shockey.

Smartly, general manager Jerry Reese resisted the temptation to gain a prime draft pick (the Saints' second-rounder, the 40th overall selection) and kept Shockey where he belongs. A tight end position that at present is a strength with Shockey and Kevin Boss would have instantly devolved into a glaring weakness if Reese listened to those with short memories who turned on the once wildly-popular Shockey.

The bulging tattooed biceps, the flowing blond hair and all those No. 80 jerseys? How did Shockey the phenomenon become Shockey the pariah after he got hurt and the Giants hit the road and shockingly rolled to Super Bowl glory? The case to jettison Shockey is based largely on hearsay and bogus observations.

Like a spark on dry brush, the wildfire spread that Shockey is a terror around Eli Manning, that the fiery tight end browbeat the timid quarterback after every errant throw, that Shockey was a crazy man in meetings, sulking as he returned to the huddle knowing he was open with nothing to show for it.

Well, anyone who thinks of Manning shrinking around Shockey like an intimidated wimp has never spent a minute around Manning. The guy didn't suddenly grow up in frigid Green Bay or in the last two minutes of Super Bowl XLII. Eli is never going to grab Shockey's facemask and tell him to stuff it, just as Shockey is never going to quietly shrink into the background. The personalities of these two athletes could not be more different and sure, Shockey can be a pain, but players look beyond that when judging a teammate. They look to how he works and if they can count on him in the clutch.

Shockey has earned high marks in the tests that matter most. Can anyone possibly look at the running game failures without him (a dip of nearly one yard per game) and not conclude that Shockey's blocking is an under-appreciated ingredient?

Until Shockey stands up and says, "I want out,"' reports of what he told friends and confidants should be filed under "That's Shockey" bluster. No doubt following the season he told Reese he wanted to be traded. Shockey says so much and some it of even makes sense. The emotive, fly-off-the-handle Shockey is capable of eruption but usually it's harmless steam escaping his overheated engine.

The bandwagon detractors are judging Shockey by an unfair standard. Any player would have difficulty coming to grips with going down with a broken leg and then watching his team take off. Are they better without me? Do they miss me? These are perfectly normal questions for anyone. Go ask Phil Simms what was coursing through his mind as Jeff Hostetler was directing the Giants - Phil's Giants - to Super Bowl triumph.

Does he care? Shockey was instructed by his medical advisors not to attend Super Bowl XLII, as he was not far removed from surgery and on crutches. He couldn't stay away and, on his own dime, limped onto a flight, accompanied by his mother, to be with the guys in Glendale, Ariz. Shockey is not expected to be with his championship team tomorrow for the traditional ceremony on the South Lawn of the White House with President Bush, but you never know.

The best argument for trading Shockey is the fear that his best days are behind him, that the wear and tear and toll on his lower body has robbed him of his explosive speed. After six hard seasons, his long-term stock is not on the rise, but he should have at least two high-level years left in his tank. The Giants are better off with him.

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I thought Diehl did a damn good job for a guard playing tackle. Glad he's finally starting to get paid as a tackle and could be a pro bowl candidate this upcoming season.

I saw this thread and didn't want to be the one to be the pessimist, glad to see others were up for the cause. This team has the potential to go on a run of super bowl visits and so do half the other teams in the NFL.

If there is one thing I'm happy to finally start seeing it is the team finally playing up to expectations and putting a consistent effort up since Coughlin has taken over to win. This team has been in a funk for 20 years, following up their successes with utter failures.

It is the path that is now behind us that I hope will give this team the strength to meet the challenges before them. There is nothing harder in the NFL than repeating success and even those organizations that writers are now calling franchises of the decade struggle with it.

I agree, you also have to consider that they're always going to assume that the WR we drafted is going to replace the oldest one. I'm surprised that they haven't mentioned Robert Henderson is being groomed to replace Michael Strahan.

Is it just me, or dont we already have a mini Toomer? (Smith)

I noticed that one as well and stopped there. That just killed it for me.

Now if this is a good example, why don't they train for this like they all train for the combine?

Really? Paper "cells"? Who's dumber? The people who wrote this test or the people who failed it?

I remember how everyone raved about the draft Detroit had back in 2004. Roy Williams, Kevin Jones and Teddy Lehman.

Millen was heralded a draft wiz that year, Lions moving in the right direction, etc.

Only pick he got right was Roy Williams. Millen has only managed to get one great pick each year with the others washing out of football or landing elsewhere in the league. Its not even that hard to land the great pick because they're in the top ten every year with the exception of this year and 2001.

Draft grades depend entirely on teams picking whom scouts and analysts have decided is best for the team. You go against them, your draft was horrible.

I can't really fault the Packers for taking two QB's. Rodgers I believe was drafted by Sherman, not McCarthy so you have to wonder how much is Rodgers the kind of QB that McCarthy would like to have. BTW, anyone know the name of the third string QB on the Packers? How can you pass up the opportunity on taking a projected first round QB in the second when your starter is pretty much unproven. If the Packers picked up Culpepper, he'd probably be create a QB controversy after a few bad games by Rodgers.

Its the post Farve years in GB and to follow up Farve you have to be absolutely sold on your QB or turn into Miami. Hey if Rodgers does stick, trading Brohm to Miami or any number of teams out there looking for a QB in the next couple of years could pay in spades.

I think what the Packers did was really fucked up. They drafted Rodgers 3 years ago to eventually take over from Favre. Every year he had to listen to shit about Favre possibly retiring only to have him return. The one game he actually played in (only a half), he played well in. The guy hasn't even been given a chance to play poorly and they draft Brohm. How about some veteran backup for the guy?. They haven't done a fucking thing in free agency to address backup for the kid, and there were guys out there to be taken. And now, every time Rodgers fucks up on the field, it's going to be "he's not Brett" (Favre fucked up a lot by the way). Green Bay is going to be calling to start another QB who's name seems like it's not spelled right.

I'm pretty amazed how one super bowl pretty much has erased some horrible drafts and terrible offseason moves by Ernie Accorsi in the minds of some of the fans.

Accorsi built the super bowl team, well he also built the 4-12 team.

Some people have given up on Moss, I'd just like to point out that the exact same thing happened with the other Moss.

I'm really not impressed with this pickup. It looks good when you think he's a first round talent found in the third. When you consider the reasons he dropped from the first to the third, I get the feeling he will not even look like a third round talent in training camp this year or the next.

Its not the off-field issues, I question his work ethic. You can half-ass it at the college level when you're physically better than your opponent and clearly the better receiver on the team; its a whole new game at the NFL level.

Whether or not he lights a fire under Sinorice Moss is subject to debate. It was a slightly smarter choice than Moss was simply because Manningham actually can do the little things like help the return game that Moss never has.

I really liked this pick. Its encouraging to watch the team actively and aggressively move to find a viable backup to Manning.

I'm curious as to why you don't see the Giants worse off without Shockey? They lose their starting TE. Not only are we losing a capable blocker but a sizeable chunk of the offense. Sure he's been prone to injury, but he still manages to put in more than half a season. Randy Moss has been considered a liability to team chemistry, has had his fair share of injuries in the last couple of years, I suppose we can call him a former pro bowler and not an all pro WR... Well unless its just because he's Randy Moss. Shockey is signed till 2012.

I'm sure the Raiders didn't think they were sending the Patriots to the superbowl when they traded Randy Moss but when you place a capable receiver on a team with a QB that can get him the ball in a good offensive scheme, you'd be surprised by the results. Well unless you're Belichick with either a crystal ball or a video camera.

Sending Shockey over for just a second round pick was a bad idea, that didn't happen. For just a third round pick tomorrow or even two picks tomorrow is simply nuts.

Well I would argue that we are not automatically sending the Saints to the SuperBowl just because they are getting Shockey. There are two sides to a deal and there is no reason to think that we can't be an even better team with the compensation we receive and/or the increased opportunity/production from Boss. And no, the Saints will not be laughing at us like the Patriots are laughing at the Raiders. Completely different scenario. The Raiders got a 4th round pick for Moss. A 2nd rounder plus another pick or player is fair compensation for Shockey. Shockey is a former pro bowler. He is not an All-Pro TE, and he has been injury prone, and at times has been a liability to team chemistry. He is also a free agent at the end of the 2008 season.

 

I say do it. With the picks we get, we may end up with the next great Giant linebacker or TE. We get younger talent and Shockey moves on to a team that will get him the ball as much as he wants. I see this scenario as a win for all parties. I don't see it like you do, that the Giants are automatically worse off because Shockey is no longer on the roster.

 

Of course the Saints are only saying a third right now. They are positioning and negotiating. But I bet come tomorrow they will offer a 2nd and another pick. Plus we will see what other teams will get involved. Perhaps the Falcons and Seahawks will be in it as well. Reese will take the best offer of course, and in that regard, we are in good shape. Just don't be too disappointed if he leaves, and I won't be disappointed if he stays.

Saints aren't the only team interested, there are the Seahawks.

We're actually in the driver's seat for this one. I know its hard to believe but really think about it. We have a TE under contract, under 30, probowler. No reason whatsoever to trade him unless its worth our wild. Sure we won the super bowl without him, couldn't have gotten there without him either. Consider this, do we want to help the Saints win the super bowl next year by sending Shockey for a second round pick? The Saints will be laughing at us the same way the Patriots were laughing at the Raiders. Shockey has missed games due to turf toe, broken leg, no acls or other major knee injuries.

Word is now that the Saints are balking at a second round pick and are only offering a third.

Trading Shockey to the Saints is just not a good idea.

Tempest, I disagree. We'd only be suckers if we didn't get good value for him. And a Saints 2nd rounder plus a 4th or 5th round pick would be good value, IMO. Things to consider...

 

First, we won the SuperBowl without his services. That counts for something. Obviously, we didn't miss Shockey's blocking all THAT much.

 

Second, he has had his share of injuries, especially to the knees. This is of concern to me. Yet, he still has good value and teams want him. Shall we keep him until those knees have nothing left to give? I really believe Shockey's most productive years (in the Giants offensive system!) are behind him. That's not to say should he go to New Orleans that he won't put up gaudy offensive numbers. But they are a pass-heavy offense without good receivers outside of Colston. So I expect he will get a lot more opportunity in the passing game there. There's something to be said for selling high!

 

Eli does need a TE to throw to from time to time. But not a TE who necessarily wants to be the focus of the passing game. Eli seems to have a greater rapport with his WRs, and uses the TE to keep the defense honest, not the other way around. It's not a bad thing to have an offense geared that way. And by moving Shockey and getting younger at the position, it will help us free up some money for higher quality in other areas.

 

We can also use one of our picks for a replacement TE to compliment Boss, not sure who that will be, but it will be someone with fresh legs for sure.

 

There is an opportunity cost if we don't trade him and if we do. We just need to figure out which cost is higher. My mind tells me that the cost of keeping him is higher than if we traded him now. My heart says keep him, he is a Giant! Either way I think we are ok and trust the Giants front office. A part of me thinks that Shockey can only reach his full football potential and production in an offense like the Saints. From a football fans perspective, I would love to watch him perform in that offense. From a Giants fan perspective, I would surely miss seeing him in a Giants uniform.

Could have been if it wasn't for his back.

Haha... whatever happened to Jeff Hatch... I remember Ernie claiming he was a steal and sleeper pick.

wow yet another thread and newspaper story reporting nothing new. To take anything less than a first round pick for a four time probowl TE who is easily in the top ten and arguably in the top 5 at the position, well we'd be the suckers.

The Onion

NEW YORK—Ousted Knicks coach and president Isiah Thomas, who presided over the team during one of the least successful and most shameful periods in its history, held a press conference Wednesday to announce that his four-year legacy of abysmal team chemistry, bloated payrolls, sex scandals, and simple losing was actually a vast psychological experiment carried out on New York City as a whole.

"Congratulations, New York—I've discovered you are healthier, more resilient, and stronger than anyone would have believed," Thomas told reporters assembled to see him clean out his office, file his final report to the National Institute of Mental Health, and debrief the players and coaches who had unwittingly assisted his efforts. "Although there are indications you also have deep-seated anger issues, misplaced feelings of entitlement, and tend to live vicariously through others, overall I'm very pleased with you, and I am confident you'll come out of this a much stronger city."

"I'm a bit worried, though, that you let this experiment go on as long as it did before standing up for yourselves and making it stop," Thomas added. "I had only planned for it to last a year. New Yorkers may want to work on their assertiveness in the future."

Thomas confessed that he came up with the idea in late 2003 when he heard the Knicks were seriously considering hiring him to helm the organization despite the fact that he himself was known to be a demanding, contentious figure and had no real experience coaching a team or working at the administrative level.

"I thought, 'That's just crazy. They must be out of their minds in New York.' And then it hit me," Thomas said. "I could probably get a huge research grant for a massive study of the affects of constant low-level trauma on large populations out of this. Within minutes, was on the phone to my man at NIMH."

Thomas worked alongside behavioral psychologists with an extensive knowledge of domestic-abuse patterning, aversion dynamics, the works of B. F. Skinner, and long-term mass hysteria to assemble a comprehensive testing program. An experiment consisting of a regimen of slowly increasing stress levels and traumatic events was designed, refined, and eventually performed upon New York City and Knicks fans everywhere.

"I knew that bringing in as many ball-hogs as possible, especially Stephon Marbury, would create a feeling of isolation and abandonment in the greater metropolitan area's 11 million residents," Thomas said. "And by assembling a team that consistently ranked dead last in the NBA in assists, I created a symbolic analogue for the helpless desolation of the modern urban experience that was designed to heterodyne in New York's collective psyche, prompting frequent and perhaps even violent reactions."

"Worked like a charm, if you ask me," Thomas noted.

Other experimental stimuli Thomas used in the experiment include misspent draft picks, sexual-harassment lawsuits, rumors of listening devices placed in the team's locker room, firing acknowledged basketball guru Larry Brown and assuming the position of head coach, and leading the Knicks to win less than 40 percent of their games over four years.

"I was really proud when the chants of 'Fire Isiah' finally started," said Thomas, who intends to frame one of the fan signs bearing the slogan and display it in his home as a symbol of his success in New York. "I know I'm supposed to be objective about it—the experiment is the important thing, not the feelings of the fans—but it was a sign you were finally coming around."

"I think we all learned a lot," Thomas concluded.

For their part, the researchers from the National Institute of Mental Health were less enthusiastic.

"I don't know what made us pick Isiah," said NIMH director Dr. Thomas R. Insel, who is weathering demands for his resignation over the Knicks' losing record and treatment of fans. "He had no psychological experience, he wouldn't listen to noted experts who tried to help him, he responded to criticism with aggression, and in four short years he all but ruined a once-proud mental health organization through arrogance and incompetence. Frankly, if you ask me, the man's insane."

Dolan has done more damage to the Knicks than Thomas ever could. Why won't he sell the team?

Isaiah is history! Toast! And it's about 5 years too late! Never in my life have I seen a single person bring down and utterly destroy an entire professional franchise the way he has. He needs to be run out of New York and never allowed to return....not even for a shopping trip or vacation. He needs to be banned from NYC forever!

I'd move Groves out to OLB instead of keeping him on the line.

I have a gut feeling that Tyrell Johnson will be the first safety off the board and likely to be gone before the Giants pick. I also have a gut feeling that Phillips will still be available for the Giants.

 

Quentin Groves would be ideal backing up our D-line. But if Jerod Mayo is still on the board (doubtful), I'd prefer Mayo.

 

It will be interesting this Saturday. Can't hardly stand the wait!

 

One thing I've learned watching the draft for the past decade or so.....and that is almost nothing happens the way people think it should. QB's who are likely to be the very first pick of the draft fall to the 2nd round - LB's guaranteed to be a 1st round pick don't get picked until the 4th or 5th, etc.

 

It's always a surprise.

Have to admit I'm higher on Tyrell Johnson at this point than Kenny Phillips. Now I'm not so sure I'd want to take him with the first pick if Quentin Groves is available at 31. Both players came in for interviews with the Giants over the last two weeks but that doesn't mean much considering Aaron Ross never did.

Unfortunately, we have to rely on the same magazines and scouting reports from the media that Mel Kiper uses. We don't get to know all the inside information that the Giants scouts are using. And as we all know from past experience, the Giants scouts don't use media hyped scouting reports. So I peruse through the net to find all the information I can and I came across this little ditty:

 

"

Tyrell Johnson Compared to Kenny Phillips

:The career of Kenny Phillips (6′2 212lbs) started off with a bang at Miami, but over the last two seasons he has not improved on the field and has been very inconsistent. Meanwhile Tyrell Johnson (6′ 207lbs) was voted the Defensive Player of the Year in the Sun Belt Conference. At the combine Tyrell Johnson ran a 4.43 40 yard dash. He also completed 27 reps of 225lbs on the bench press and landed a broad jump of 10′7 the best of any safety in both categories. Meanwhile Kenny Phillips ran a 4.54 40 yard dash and completed19 reps of 225lbs on the bench. Combine numbers do not tell the entire story though, what really matters to me is on field production. Tyrell Johnson recorded 94 tackles this past season, intercepted six passes and forced two fumbles. If you watch Johnson on tape, he seems to be involved in every single play and delivers huge hits to the ball carrier. Kenny Phillips had 82 tackles last season, with two interceptions, and forced three fumbles last season. When you watch the two on tape, it is clear that Johnson is much more physical of a player than Phillips is. Johnson delivers a blow to receivers and ball carriers, while Phillips seems to wrap up and hang on. Johnson also looks better in coverage and makes great reads, while Phillips is knocked for falling for fakes and taking false steps. I think that Johnson will be one of the steals of this draft and within two years of NFL experience, will be an annual pro bowler".

Of course, this is one man's opinion, but it makes perfect sense. Also, even the talking heads are saying that Johnson is moving up the charts so fast that he could be taken in the first 15 rounds and is likely to be taken ahead of Phillips. Of course - again - this is all speculation

It was the safe pick, the best one to help out that disaster.

BOOHYAH

I never said you said anything about Boss being better.

 

 

Don't you think it's kind of silly to be making comments about "teams we lost to with Shockey". Seriously, we had a winning record before he got hurt. We didn't mount a tremendous comeback against the Skins when he got carted off. We beat the Bills and lost to the Pats. We averaged a whopping 21.4 points a game in the playoffs without him. Let's forget the fact that Eli "actually played better in the playoffs", let's forget the fact that our defense actually killed teams (please note that Shockey does not play defense, so he's not on the field for half the game at least). He does not kick or punt or play special teams. No, he has pissed us off in the past, so now all of this sudden improvement in the team is down to the fact of one thing, "Jeremy Shockey got hurt so his arm waving and tantrums were not around to stop us from winning". You've got to be kidding me.

 

And after pointing out that in the 3 games you noted, he actually played above and average and in one he played great, you still noted "teams we lost to with Shockey". We lost both Dallas games because our defense couldnt' stop shit and the Green Bay game they pretty much gave up. Eli had 4 interceptions in the Vikings game, stunk up the joint against the Skins.

 

It would be nice sometimes not to start saying the certain players suck because they are pissing us off with their behaviour as opposed to their performance. Tiki didn't suck, but he's on the Today show now so he kinda did.

All he demonstrated was that he can play the position we drafted him at that year. Moving Kiwi back to DE opens up a hole at LB.

In all fairness, Kiwi had demonstrated he was the heir apparent to Strahan in his rookie season. It's not his fault he was moved to a new position, it wasn't because he played badly at DE, in fact just the opposite. If Kiwi is moved back, who starts really doesn't matter because both he and Tuck will see tons of time in the rotation.