Allstarjim

Yeah but I don't think that was the case. I thought before that Doctson was the top receiver in the draft. I felt Coleman was right there with him and would be the first off the board. I think Michael Thomas and Braxton Miller will both be better than Treadwell. I think Shepard will be better than Treadwell. So I never saw Treadwell in the elite group of receivers IN THIS draft. I did feel some vindication that both Doctson and Coleman went ahead of Treadwell, not gonna lie.

So a college player does better against poorer competition...that doesn't tell me much.

 

FWIW, I am also glad we didn't take Treadwell because (1) we didn't need to invest a first round pick in a WR when there were deeper needs elsewhere and (2) Treadwell, even when reported as the best WR in the draft, was said to be a 2nd or 3rd round WR in skillset, but was 1st round this year due to lack of WRs. So to me, you don't draft a guy at a position high simply because of a lack of quality at that position in the draft.

He's was the #1 receiver in the draft according to people who are wrong.

The expectation for a first round wide receiver talent is that you put up big numbers against nearly all competition, including, and especially, top competition. Treadwell didn't do that. He feasted on bad comp which is what u want to see, but was pedestrian against better defenses. That's called a 3rd round talent.

So yeah, I'm glad we didn't draft Treadwell also.

 

I just mean the talent is so skewed in college ball.

I use future hall of famer Ramses Barden as an example, looking at his college highlight tapes he looked like the next Randy Moss, but it's easy to catch a ball when the next tallest guy on the field is a 5'7 CB.

 

It's why I hated the idea of drafting Tredwell in the first round, everything I've seen of him in college was the CB/Safety fucking up on some play and him standing wide open in the end zone, but scouts still had a first round grade for the guy.

 

I dunno it's why I'm at home and JR and CO get to fuck up fix the Giants.

BiC I posted this pre-draft re: Treadwell on the other site:

he played 8 games against at least average or better pass defenses. Those games were against 'Bama, Vandy, Florida, Texas A&M, Auburn, LSU, Mississippi State, and Fresno State. In those games, he averaged 5.375 receptions for 78 yards and 0.5 TDs.

Against very bad pass defenses, which were against New Mexico State (ranked 120th out of 128 teams), Memphis (107), Arkansas (118th), and Oklahoma State (95th), he averaged 8.75 catches, 120 yards, and 1.75 TDs. Put another way, 7 of his 11 TDs came against these 4 terrible teams. 42% of his yardage total came in these 4 games (13 total games played). More than half of his receptions came in these 4 games... all this against terrible, bad, awful pass defenses.

And I'm not including the Tennessee-Martin game in these individual game stats because not a Div I game and he probably didn't even play the whole game, first game of the year, but he only went for 4-44-0 in that game, as well.

I think Perkins has an upside 3rd down RB floor to him. Good pass catcher, and they say he can pass pro.

In terms of every down work, we'll see. Cautiously optimistic. Agree with the glider comment.

http://nypost.com/2016/04/30/giants-draft-middle-linebacker-of-the-future/

 

The headline says, "Middle linebacker of the future" Joe.

Well regarding Hargreaves I'm glad we didn't take because I never liked him that much in the first place. But I wouldn't have gone corner either.

 

Jim, would you be worried if Reese had Ramsey listed high of your draft board but as a safety?. That's a bit bizarre. You think the Rams, if they had no choice and had to pick one as a corner, would have picked Apple over Ramsey?.

No, I think they would've picked Ramsey. Ramsey is looked at as a safety by some because he did line up there with FSU at times and was fantastic, but he would still be the top corner on the board.

I think the Rams viewed him as a safety because they felt that would be the position where he would most help their team. With the Jaguars it's at corner. But Ramsey would be the top corner or safety either way.

BG, I want to hate on Wentz and I just can't. I like the guy. And some of the throws I've seen him make on the move are just beautiful. I'm sure I'll find some reasons to want to piss in his cheerios as the years go by, though. I think the Eagles finally have their franchise QB, though.

We should be asking Jacksonville about Tashaun Gipson, now they've drafted Ramsey.

The Jags view Ramsey as a corner (he can play either).

*Edit, whoops, sorry bigblue, just saw you said that already.

So am I the only person who thinks the Giants selecting Perkins was because they ran out of players they actually scouted?

Well, I liked other players but they all had their issues. In particular, Jonathan Williams, RB Arkansas, I was very high on him. But he missed all of 2015 because of a broken foot he had to have surgically repaired. That's a pretty big medical flag to start your career with.

Alex Collins was another guy I liked, but he doesn't have the complete set of skills Perkins has, particular with respect to pass catching.

Jordan Howard was there also, another RB I liked, but really similar to Collins in that Perkins is more well rounded. Collins and Howard both are more between the tackles big backs, with limited pass catching and open field wiggle, both strengths of Perkins. I liked Perkins in that he has a lot of hard to find skills, but don't believe, for a non-tackle breaker, grinding type of back, that he had the plus speed you typically look for in running backs with his size and skill set. But he does do everything pretty well, and I believe he can be a three-down running back.

I fully expected the Giants to go RB in the 5th, because there was still tremendous value on the board at that position, and they did a good job getting one of those players. I actually expected them to go RB in the 4th, for the same reason. I felt that guys like Kenneth Dixon and Devontae Booker were 3rd round talents, even considering the de-valuation of the position group. Both of those guys went in the compensatory section of the 4th round, so they were off the board.

Perkins was very productive and you can make a strong case that he was a big value in the 5th. For me what he has to prove is that he can add a little strength, thicken up in those legs, and be effective between the tackles. A lot of Perkins' big runs I saw were on plays where the UCLA offensive line was just opening cavernous holes for him, and really dominating the POA. Obviously, that's not going to happen at the next level, so he will need to thrive in much tighter spaces. I respect a lot of guys that saw Perkins as an upside NFL running back.

I have listened to silva several times this year on the draft and he had never come off as someone who gossips or relys on hearsay. Usually a comment like that is derived from something or some source otherwise guys like him will die a slow death in this business. That said, its not a reach to say apple would have been there later and the giants could have traded down for him. I hope that apple works , i hope jerry has gotten this right, because i want him to succeed. I'm not going back on my linebacker comment because i think that's disgraceful and no one here can logically defend him on that.

There's a guy on BBI, he posted about the Apple pick. Says he has a friend in the Rams FO. I found him to be very credible. He says they don't talk football much, when they do, it's about the Giants (not the Rams). After the pick, he texted him, and asked him how the Rams had him on their board. Guy says the Rams had Apple as the #1 corner on their board (they had Ramsey as a Safety). He went on to say that he didn't think that Apple would've been available in a trade down.... here is his exact reply with link:

scouts ranked him as the top cb on our board with ramsey higher as the top s. eli was part of our discussions before we traded up. several scouts said he might not last till 15 and don't think he would have been there if ny traded down

 

http://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=535116

I believe the Bucs were poised to take Apple as well. The players the Giants were linked to via beat writers were: 1. Leonard Floyd, 2. Jack Conklin, Myles Jack, and Vernon Hargreaves.

They knew the Bears were trading up for Floyd, and Conklin was off the board. Obviously, for the Bucs, they are sitting there thinking if they drop to 11, they think the Giants will either stop the Tunsil slide because they need a tackle (not realistic because the Giants are pretty conservative, especially in recent years with respect to character), take Jack, or take Hargreaves. That would then free them up to take Apple, the player they wanted anyway.

I've heard whispers (with less evidence), that the Bucs wanted Apple also.

My own personal analysis is that if you just go by how each of them played Amari Cooper in 2014, Hargreaves struggled a lot more than Apple did. Now consider Apple did that as a 19 year old. Apple is longer/taller, faster and younger than Hargreaves. According to at least two NFL teams, he was not a reach.

OK, to be fair I'm sure there may be cases where both instances are true... a trade up being a calculated move and sometimes a move of desperation or panic.

But think about it, it all depends on the draft board, the remaining talent, how you have them graded, and the expected return of the desired player versus the expected return of the draft picks you give up to get that player.

In this particular draft, I thought that after Conklin went off the board, you let the draft fall to you or trade back. The Giants said they didn't get a good enough offer to trade back.

I can't speak to last year for sure, but I do think at times in the pass Jerry Reese has been overly inclined to trade up.

Regardless, saying that picking Apple was a panic-pick... that's just foolish for someone to say, and it comes from a place of complete ignorance, as does the follow up comment of him being a "fringe first-rounder." What draft scout or publication ever had Apple sliding to the 2nd round? By far, most did not. Ourlads had him as the 13th best player in the draft. NFLDraftScout.com (CBS prospect rankings) had him as the 20th ranked player in the draft.

Regardless, several NFL teams had him as their #1 corner.

In fact, I'd be willing to bet he's who the Bucs were targeting at 11 when they made the trade with the Bears. I don't believe the Bucs had Hargreaves as their #1. I believe they thought the Giants would take Hargreaves, as was the rumored contingency (or they would take Tunsil), and they would then be able to draft Apple.

Unless you are in the know, it's all speculation, but for Silva to wax on like he knows something is idiotic and arrogant.

Just my opinion, but I think if you're looking at a situation where there's one guy left on your board who is on a different level from everybody else on your board, and he fits a need, then that is a situation that you try to move up.

 

This may describe Landon Collins.

Yup, it's a calculated move, not panic.

 

That's true but Tony Romo only has 2-3 years left, tops. A running back can come right in and play, as opposed to other players who need a few years to develop. If they want to give Romo a ring they have to win now, and Elliot behind that line was the best way to do that.

The other picks don't fit your win-now approach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oq88nFqJNY

All I could think of was... obese, female version of Sam Kinison on valium.

When you think about Dallas' draft, they could've had Jalen Ramsey and Myles Jack on their defense THIS YEAR. A defense

Instead, they took a RB, who, no matter how good he is, is the position with the shortest career lifespan, and took him at a pick that was the highest they've had in the draft since 1991.

Now they wait (and hope) Jaylon Smith can recover and play, but also play at a level that justifies the pick.

I've said it before, Jalen Ramsey was the best defensive back to come out of college in many years.

The Cowboys could've waited until the 4th and gotten a RB like Devontae Booker, and still had a defense that could've been one of the best in football.

The team that just won the super bowl had Harris and Talib and still drafted Roby. Having three solid corners allows Miller and Ware to hunt while the corners play bump and run. This is the Giants exact plan

Yup.

 

 

I actually read somewhere that the Giants played much more zone last year than man coverage, but as a whole I think Spags tends to play more press than zone.

You are correct, but IMO that's more because they were forced to because they couldn't get pressure. I don't think that's the scheme or what they want to do. I'm pretty sure Spags wants the coverage to be more press-man oriented.

Evan Silva on Rotoworld gives us a C

 

Grade: C+

 

New York Giants

 

1 (10). Ohio State CB Eli Apple

2 (40). Oklahoma WR Sterling Shepard

3 (71). Boise State S Darian Thompson

4 (109). Clemson LB B.J. Goodson

5 (149). UCLA RB Paul Perkins

6 (184). South Carolina TE Jerell Adams

 

Overview: Struggling GM Jerry Reese's draft began with a disaster. Loose lips in the Giants' organization leaked Reese's love for Leonard Floyd, so Bears GM Ryan Pace leapfrogged New York to land Floyd at No. 9. Reese panicked and overdrafted Apple, a fringe first-round prospect who didn't address a pressing need on a roster littered with them. Shepard is a plug-and-play slot receiver and a high-floor pick. Although Thompson showed prolific ball skills in the Mountain West Conference, he has 4.69 speed and lacks the requisite range to solve New York's free safety woes. Goodson, Perkins, and Adams were all rock-solid day-three picks; Perkins in particular could be an early contributor in a Giants backfield that is long on quantity but short on quality. While I'm confident Reese came away with a few good football players here, the first-round panic pick of Apple hurts New York's draft grade. Reese further failed to address an offensive line that needs new starters at both right guard and right tackle.

It's hard not to laugh at the sheer stupidity of this clown. This fucktard actually gets paid to write this complete drivel.

He may, MAY be correct about the leaks. I tend to think that he probably was. It is plausible and possible that the leaks were intentional to throw off true intention. I guarantee this fucking idiot doesn't know. Regardless... GM's figure this out... Team A needs a LBer with cover skills. A LBer with cover skills is available at team's draft position. Team B knows that Team A needs a LB, Team B, who also covets this linebacker, makes the trade. It doesn't have anything to do with leaks, it's putting 2 and 2 together. It's not that complicated. Further, Tampa was also linked to Floyd, and there was no guarantee that Tampa doesn't take him anyway if the Bears don't trade up.

The Giants were linked to Myles Jack also... in fact, some of the "insider" info was that the pick would be Jack if he's there. Then they said he's off the board because of medical, then there was information that he was still the target. People said they were linked to Hargreaves, too.

Further, to suggest that Reese panicked is a complete work of unbelievable, un-intelligent, lazy fiction. Every team has a draft board. There's no panic, you just go to your board and see who's the next best guy available.

Next, to say Reese over-drafted Apple and that he is a "fringe first-round prospect" is to ignore the insider information that has been released since the draft... that the Miami Dolphins were poised to take Apple at 13, and, moreover, that the Los Angeles Rams had Apple as their top-rated corner (after Ramsey), and who said that he would've likely not been available had the Giants traded down. That means, multiple teams had Apple as their top corner, and that means he was not a fringe first-round prospect at all.

Further, to suggest that CB wasn't a pressing need is to ignore the stark reality that you must have 3 starting caliber corners in the NFL to compete, and the Giants had 2. Teams are in nickel 60-65% of the time, as has been stated many times. Corner is a premium position.

It's not hard to imagine Apple is a better prospect, and in particular, a better fit for NY... he is taller, longer arm-ed than Hargreaves, has better deep speed, and is a better press corner than Hargreaves, who is more of a zone coverage corner. The Giants are a press-man coverage defense primarily. Apple also had higher marks in terms of college production than Hargreaves, allowing a much lower percentage of passes completed against him.

I struggled mightily trying to justify Hargreaves as the top corner among the top tier group after Ramsey, because of those physical and timed measurables, as well as scheme fit for NY.

Silva is a fucking moron who is talking straight out of his ass.

He went to the high school in my neighborhood. Cardinal Newman. I think the Browns took him.

Correct... 7th round pick.

He can come back to teach, mentor Thompson and the other young safeties. There's already 6 safeties with a chance to be on the week 1 roster:

Landon Collins

Nat Berhe

Bennett Jackson (could be moved back to corner)

Mykelle Thompson
Darian Thompson

Cooper Taylor

Only so many roster spots, but it would be nice to have Rolle back and hopefully help the young guys develop.

1. Eli Apple-Plan here is to play bump and run on the outside and have Jenkins come into the slot. I've heard comparisons to Trumaine Johnson (the guy I wanted from Rams) Jenkins can also press and is very aggressive. Only three years removed from high school. We get a guys that's nine years younger than DRC. Has better ball skills than int numbers indicate, has key int's in big games

 

2. Sterling Shepard-Love this pick. Can fit inside or outside and is possibly the best route runner in the NFL.

 

3. Darian Thompson- 2nd best, if not best safety on the team already. Crazy balls skills, can play single high and allow the CB's to be aggressive. Will fit really well. Think Brian Dawkins who Spags had in Philly

 

4. B.J Goodson-I didn't think the Giants were really suited to get an athletic/hybrid type LB. Floyd stuff leading to draft was all smoke I believe. Goodson is a thumper that fits better and will compete early for snaps. Joshua Perry went a few picks before and was someone I had them targeting in round 3. Overall Goodson will be good and I think honestly think better than Ragland (who some wanted us to take.) Goodson was team captain and defensive play caller something that I think really appealed to the Giants

 

5. Paul Perkins RB- Three down back who is better than any back on the roster right now

 

6. Jerell Adams- Me and Jim mentioned some other TE's at this spot. I didn't even realize Adams was still there. He can threaten the seam and has the size to be good in the red zone

 

Overall I like this draft. Didn't think they would go OT after not finding one in round one.

I thought maybe they would get Spriggs in round 2 or Shon Coleman, Le'Raven Clark in round 3, but after those three guys, there really isn't much of a point. The other guys are projects, and perhaps these three were not as NFL ready in their eyes as some believed, either. Guys will shake loose, I just hope Reese is aggressive in addressing this issue, up to the point of making a strong offer for an OT that can start on the right side and not be a liability.

And not sure where they are getting that 40 time for Ragland, he ran a 4.72 at the combine, Goodson a 4.69.

BTW, same article, here's what they said about Goodson:

5. B.J. GOODSON, Clemson (6-0 ½, 240, 4.65, 3-4): Started for 1½ seasons at MLB. "He's not a very good athlete but he had a good year," one scout said. "He's aggressive, he's active. He made a lot of plays for them. I didn't see him stack and shed. Instinctive kid. Not a real big guy." Finished with 138 tackles (17 ½ for loss), 6 ½ sacks and 8 big plays. "Really good between the tackles," another scout said. "Has some range between the numbers. I question his ability going backwards in coverage. He's tight." His 30 reps on the bench press led ILBs. From Lamar, S.C.

 

 

Ragland was considered by some as a 1st round value, and a 3 down linebacker. Yes, his strength is run defense, but he possesses adequate zone abilities. He is capable of covering tight ends. SEC Defensive Player of the Year. I really hope Shepard is as great as everyone says. The Giants passed on a blue chip middle linebacker to take him.

 

http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2016rragland.php

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2016/03/24/draft-pff-scouting-report-reggie-ragland-lb-alabama/

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/2000915/reggie-ragland

 

It's all academic now. I respect your opinion, but will reserve judgment on Goodson, given Reese's terrible track record.

 

My guess is we see Goodson on special teams in 2016.

 

As I said before, if Reese's free agents fail, then so does his draft. He put all his eggs in one basket in 2016.

Joe, I encourage you to go to draftbreakdown.com and view Ragland's games. Please count for me how many times he drops into a zone coverage. Count how many times he is rushing the passer on third downs versus having coverage responsibility.

This is also from Bob McGinn's pre-draft articles where he quotes anonymous, NFL scouts on the prospects by position:

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/rating-the-nfl-draft-prospects-linebackers-b99704579z1-377020691.html

3. REGGIE RAGLAND, Alabama (6-1, 248, 4.66, 1): Kept busy playing special teams for two years, started at WLB in 2014 and as the signal-calling MLB in '15. "When he hits people they stop right there," one scout said. "He's a plugger. Good reading through hats, diagnosing quick. He can get sideline to sideline tracking people down." Finished with 220 tackles (17 ½ for loss), 4 sacks and 8 big plays. "Very nice kid," another scout said. "He's gifted enough. His body is a little soft but his athleticism speaks for itself. Question is, can he be a three-down linebacker? That's my only concern. If you really watch Alabama, on third down they don't have him dropping into space. They have him rushing the passer (with his hand down outside). There's got to be a reason they do that." Administered the Wonderlic test twice, scoring 10 and later 15. "There was a little knock on him learning the playbook early," said a third scout. "Talking to people at Alabama, you're not going to throw an NFL playbook at him Day 1. But in time he will learn it. When he learns it he can retain it." From Madison, Ala. "Great (expletive) kid," a fourth scout said. "He'll knock the (expletive) out of you. Fast, explosive, not very smart. That's going to affect him on the next level."

 

He is a downhill LBer, who wasn't asked to run and cover very much. Maybe he will rush the passer for the Bills on 3rd down.

He accumulated big stats behind Jarran Reed and A'Shawn Robinson. He's aggressive, he brings force to the tackle. But I can say the same things about Goodson. And Goodson is faster, stronger, with quicker change of direction skills, as evidenced by his superior numbers at the combine. Moreover, look at Goodson and look at Ragland. You can see which one of those guys puts in work at the gym.

And not sure if you saw, but I'll say it again... Ragland is also a medical flag, enlarged aorta. He will need yearly ekg's. That doesn't mean he won't have a long, productive career, but it's also not something you dismiss as nothing.

If Goodson played for Alabama the last couple of years, he would've been projected as a first rounder. Seriously.

But again, I've watched Ragland, he's almost ALWAYS running toward the line of scrimmage. The Bills will find out if he can cover at all, and that's a question.

I'm not saying Goodson is going to be Luke Kuechly in pass coverage. But I will say this, Ragland DOESN'T have any visible advantage over Goodson in that area as a prospect. And Goodson has more athleticism than Ragland to be successful at it.