parlintm

I can't say that bringing back Will Allen or a comparable CB is a given, because the supply of CB's this year looks to sub-par.

 

I'm not sold on Butler as a starting FS. At least, I'm not sold yet. I do believe he deserves a shot, but I think the Giants have to, at the very least, bring in competition. You are right that if the Giants are really high on Butler, then the FS becomes less of a priority.

.

From what I understand, Clancy and the Giants are still at an impasse in negotiations. I hope they bring him back at a reasonable price ... I'd certainly rather look elsewhere than overpay for him. One name to keep an eye on is La'Roi Glover, who will probably get cut by Dallas. Perfect fit in our scheme, and should not be overly expensive because of his age.

 

Out of curiosity, who are some 2nd round LBs that you like?

 

I don't dislike him as a player ... I just don't like him on the weak side. He is rigid and does not have great agility, which makes him a square peg in a round hole at WLB. He may be this year's solution (assuming he can stay on the field), but I think the team can do better, even with a rookie LB as decorated as Jackson (but not with a developmental guy such as Thomas Howard). His injuries, age, salary (he may still be cut for all we know), and playing out of position make him a question mark to me.

Ok.. lots to deal with:

1. CB - I agree that this is pretty thin this year and signing WA seems like the best option (which is scary). I'm terrified that the Giants are going to reach and overspend big time on a mediocre player, ala Petigout. I don't think that the Giants will go into the season starting Webster and a rookie so that leaves signing a FA. Lately I've been thinking that the draft is pretty deep at CB as well and we should have our choice of a few of them. I think the Giants are really being built to win the superbowl in the 2007-2008 year so I think drafting a CB and throwing him out there might not be the worst thing. It might be a bit painful early but come playoff time, we might have 2 good, young Cb's. That said, we could take the money used to sign a and actually get a big name player. Maybe we could go for a big DT and have arguably the best DL which would mask some mistakes by a young secondary.... sorry for rambling, just thinking outloud. So if not FA Cb, what do you think?

2. From some interview I read, it seemed like the Giants were pretty high on Butler. I think bringing in a mid round pick for competition/depth is the way they will go. Unless they are VERY high on him and think he's a longterm rock, then they willg get a cheap vet to back him up. I doubt they are that high on him though.

3. DT is still an issue. I guess it all hinges on Clancy and this contract. If he leaves, I think this is position for the Giants to make a potential "spash" in FA.

4. Intersting thoughts on emmons. Id always taken him as a solid, starter... but you might be right. Ill get back to you on round 2 LB's.

This is not true...

 

Todd Pinkston, Koren Robinson, Freddie Mitchell, Peter Warrick, and Peerless Price all were all 1st round drat busts.

 

On the other hand guys like Andre Reed, T.O. and Issac Bruce were all drafted past round 1.

 

So I think ANY player drafted is either "hit or miss".

My point was that the WR spot is a very difficult one to gauge. There is rarely such a thing as a sure thing. I think Jackson and Holmes are as close to the sure thing as you can get in this draft and beyond them, I dont feel comfortable with the Giants using a valuable draft pick on a risky WR. So I guess we're in agreement, no WR's rounds 2-4!

What do you think of guys like Greg Blue and Dwayne Slay. I'm just curious because I hear mixed opinions about them and haven't had the time to really get info on these guys (fucking mid-terms )

IMO, this is the best route to go. Draft a FS in the 3rd or 4th round and let Butler and the Rook compete for the starting job. Butler will win it, but if he struggles, there will be a young player to take his spot. They will push each other every practice trying to win/hold onto the FS spot. Come playoff time, one of them should have emerged as a solid FS for us.

This way we can use our cap space to address other issues: DT, WR, CB etc...

I like taylor also and I cant wait for camp.

We need competition at 3WR spot Tyree with his

great ST play deserves a shot!

Taylor, I like and he will get his chance come training camp but he hasnt shown he can stay healthy or even be a productive WR so relying on him to be our #3 would be a big mistake. If he shows he can stay healthy and make the plays, he deserves it.

I love Tyree but he's never going to be a good receiver. While he's great on ST, he's just not that fast or quick or big or anything. He'll keep making the team b/c of his ST but not for his receiving skills.

The point is, addressing the #3 WR through an early draft pick or FA acquisition is a must. It seems more and more likely that we will go the route of FA.

This a fair point, although I think you must consider that currently we don't have any viable starter at WLB. Torbor is irrelevant to the debate, because he is a SLB. Emmons is a decent player, but he is not well-suited to be a WLB ... and at age 32 (soon to be 33), he does not have much of a future here. As such, IMO the need to address WLB far exceeds the need to add a 3rd WR (for reasons previously discussed -- Plax, Shockey, Toomer, Tiki -- though I do agree 3rd WR is a need). The same applies to FS, where our current reinforcements consist of James Butler and only James Butler, thus prioritizing FS over 3rd WR as well.

 

Therefore, I think that after CB, WLB and FS are our most pressing needs. I would like to see all of these positions, WR included, addressed in free agency. I have always felt that free agency was the proper avenue to address need, while the draft is an excellent resource for acquiring pure talent. That's why I hate discussing draft picks within the context of need, because I am a firm believer in getting the best player available. That being said (and I'm sure this will be a point of disagreement), I think that D'Qwell is a better football player than Chad, and factoring in this concept of "need," I feel that he would be a smarter pick at 25.

Money, I stand behind my belief that if Jackson is available we should draft him. But it seems highly unlikely at this point that he won't be left at #25 so I'm moving on. As I see it, our needs are in roughly this order:

Starting CB, #3 WR, LB, FS, DT, Nickel/4th CB.

I think it's widely accepted that we will sign either Will Allen or a comparable FA to start opposite Webster. Given the quality of LB's in the draft, I think it makes sense to draft one in the first or second round. How important do you think our acquiring a FS is? I think Butler will be fine (maybe he ends up being good) but regardless we need some quality depth and maybe someone that can start over him. But if the Giants really think that he is the long-term answer at FS then the need at FS drops in priority. I'm just not sure about Butler... thoughts?

I think spending a 2nd or 3rd round pick on a WR can be a waste. I think that WR's, once you get out of the first round are very questionable and are hit or miss. If we don't go WR in the first round, I'd rather use the pick on other, safer positions. So this means, acquiring a solid #3 via FA.

What's the latest on the Clancy situation?? IMO, Fred Robbins is not going to cut it and this is an issue that is being overlooked. We need to grab a solid, run stopper in FA b/c I dont see the giants going w/ DT early in the draft.

So I guess this is my breakdown, assuming Jackson, Holmes and Moss will be gone by the time we pick (even if moss is left, not sure if I want him).

#1 CB- sign w.a or FA

LB - Round 2 of the draft

Round 1 Pick - BPA at CB, FS, and even DT. I think we've got lots of flexibility/needs here and shouldnt get caught up on drafting a certain position. I also don't think we should take a LB here unless there is truly a top guy b/c I don't want to take LB rounds 1 and 2... and I think LB in round 2 could be great value pick.

WR - Get a solid guy via FA. Someone who has not been injury prone.

Round 3-4: Take whichever positions we didnt take in round 1, going BPA available first.

Sorry, this ended up longer than I intended. Thoughts? also, money what's your problem w/ emmons? I know he's not a long-term solution, but neither is Toomer. The question is, is he this year's solution? I'd say yes, especially if we draft a backup. I dont have a problem w/ him starting, can you explain why you don't like emmons?

The following is taken from Nfldraftcountdown.com:

• Word has it that Florida St. junior CB Antonio Cromartie is fully recovered from his knee injury and recently ran 4.31 and 4.29 forties on a grass surface.

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/scoutingr...ocromartie.html

I think it's well known that if Jackson, Holmes or maybe even Moss are available, I'd like the Giants to draft a WR in the first round. I am a firm believer in drafting a LB in the second round because we should be able to get great value with that pick.

So if one of the top WR's are not available, which is beginning to seem more likely, I was thinking about what I would like the Giants to do in the first round. I think drafting Cromartie is a definite possibility and perhaps the only CB I'd take at #25. What is everyone's thoughts on the guy?

With such a deep draft at the LB position, we should have no problem acquiring a solid player in the 1st 2 rounds. I would much rather see us spend our cap money to find a quality FS, WR or DT. That is, of course, after we sign a CB.

Florida State DT Brodrick Bunkley benched 225lbs for 44 reps.

i can do 45... easy. no way we draft such a weakling.

Also...

I believe Jackson could put up 500 receiving yards and 4 touchdowns this year at the third WR position. That's an improvement of 320 yards and 4 td's over our other possible #3 receivers. This would be a HUGE upgrade at a thin position.

A rookie tackle could put up 85-90 tackles if they push torbor out of the starting lineup, but in the scheme of things... it's not a big improvement over the production that we could get out of torbor while having a round 2 pick to back him up.

I just see a quality receiver having a bigger impact than a round 1 LB over a round 2 LB. And any CB or S picked after the first round won't be starting so the effect of dropping them a spot in the draft doesn't hurt us that much.

I disagree with a WR making immediate dividends.

 

Besides Randy Moss the list of rookie WR's who had good years is very very small. Combine that with him only going to get maybe 3 or 4 looks a game he wont be making an immediate impact.

 

Look at last years rookie WR's

 

#3 overall Braylon Edwards 32 receptions for 512 yards in 10 games (7 starts, did get a knee injury)

#7 overall Troy Williamson 24 for 372 in 14 games (3 starts)

#10 overall Mike Williams 29 for 350 in 14 games (4 starts)

#21 overall Matt Jones 36 for 432 in 16 games (1 start)

#22 overall Mark Clayton 44 for 471 14 games (10 starts)

#27 overall Roddy White 29 for 446 16 games (8 starts)

 

Not a real stellar group. Edwards would have had much better stats had he not blown out his knee, and Matt Jones was learning the position but finding someone that can give you 30 catches in free agency or later in the draft is not difficult. So while finding a replacement for Toomer is a priority I don't think drafting a WR over someone on the defensive side of the ball (all things being equal) is necessarly the right thing to do.

 

In contrast to the WR's look at the immediate impact that was brought on by rookie LB's Demarcus Ware, Shawn Merriman, and Lofa Tatupu (albeit he was a 2nd rounder). Even Derrick Johnson who had a very quiet year had 79 tackles as a rookie.

Last year we had 186 COMBINED yards by our #3 WR position. I'm not saying we need a guy to come in and contribute an 800 yard season but any of those numbers listed above would be a big improvement for us. I don't think Chad Jackson would have any problem putting up 400-600 yards next season. That said, i've heard he had a great combine and his stock may raise out of our range. By no means do I want the Giants to overextend themselves but if a receiver of Jackson's caliber is left when we pick, I would be all for it. That means Holmes, Jackson and maybe, but im not sold yet, moss too.

I think Chad Jackson and Santonio Holmes are much better, more complete receivers than Moss. All 3 will be gone in the first round or very early second.

We don't need a LB of Peterson's calibre

 

we have a good core of players, combined with quality draft picks we have a decent group

 

if we go with a LB in free agency, someone like Ben Leber or David Thornton would be good value for us

I agree completely. I think the Giants would be better off using their cap space to sign a FS that can compete for the starting job or is a quality backup to either safety position.

I think you are underestimating our cap space (especially after today's moves) and overrestimating the market value for veteran WRs and Punters. The Giants can add quite a few guys via free agency, albeit no one as expensive as guys like Burress, McKenzie, and Pierce.

You're probably right about my over/under estimating. Do you know how much the Giants are expected to have in cap space? I've alway heard the 3-5 mill range but it sounds like it will be a bit more.

I'd imagine that Peterson is comparable to a Burress in salary. If I remember correctly, he's been franchised lately so that means hes not going to be cheap... unless his price drops significantly because of his injuries. I know that we can/need to sign a bunch of veterans to provide depth, but I would think Julian Peterson on top of that would be out of our price range.

Also, I don't agree with this line of reasoning: " Any defensive rookies we draft will be filling a need on the bench while drafting a quality receiver will pay immediate dividends."

What part do you disagree with? Any defenders we draft will be on the bench or a wide receiver draft will pay immediate dividends?

If you want someone to impact straight away, you go with a free agenct. A rookie you want to develop behind/ and compete with starters. You can't expect a quality college player and expect them to be a good nfl player right away.

 

The problem with our offense was mostly with our execution

One of the few positions that college players can easily transfer their play to the NFL is at receiver. I think Jackson would have no trouble adjusting especially if he starts out as the #3 receiver. He has fewer routes and plays to learn. He would be playing from day 1 so by playoff time he should be comfortable at that position. And when Amani decided to retire, whether it's after this season or the next, he will be ready to take his spot.

What I've done is taken a look at the offense and defense for our needs. On offense, the only thing we are missing is a #3 WR (can't deny that) and I've looked at our defensive needs. Any defensive rookies we draft will be filling a need on the bench while drafting a quality receiver will pay immediate dividends as well as in the future. For that, I'm willing to pay the price of bumping the players that we draft for defensive depth down one round.

Actually, I believe we save more cap space by cutting Green than Emmons

they both signed 5 year deals,

Well, do you think we have enough room for the aforementioned signings AND Julian Peterson or another player of his caliber?

So the Giants cut Green instead of Emmons. I think some of us are suprised by this move because cutting Emmons would have cleared more cap space and given us flexibility to sign some more FA's. I think it's highly unlikely that the Giants will cut Emmons too... if they were going to do it, they would have done it already.

I think that the Giants #1 priority in FA is to sign Will Allen or a CB of his caliber or better. After that the Giants need to resign Clancy or another DT. We also need to sign a veteran safety to backup Gibril and Butler... maybe even compete for the starting FS position.

These are the key signings. After these, I don't see us having the cap space to go after a big name such as Julian Peterson. Maybe someone can come up w/ the exact numbers, but if the Giants were going to get him, they would have cut Emmons. This means that the Giants are fine going into the season with their top 4 LB's being: Pierce, Torbor, Emmons and a draftpick. Personally, I'm satisfied with that unit.

Anybody else thinking along these lines? Also, people want us to sign a #3 veteran WR, but I'm not sure if we're going to have money for that either, especially if we need to sign a punter.

The Giants are a young team and I think will progress as the season goes a along. Webster will be one of our starting CB's and I expect him to peak at the end of the year as he gets more experienced. I think if we had Chad Jackson or another dangerous WR to replace our nonexistent #3 WR we will have the most explosive offense in football. I expect Eli to make a "leap" this year as he puts together his reads and mechanics. We play in a tough divisions so I don't expect a great record, but it will be good enough to make the playoffs. Something along the lines of 11-5 or 10-6.

I think this Giants team will be peaking at the right time and walk away with the NFC championship.

Then we've got the superbowl and if the Giants are in it, they're my pick.

Giants 2006-2007 Superbowl Champs!

We were pretty close this year and we should only get much better next year.

Big Pete--

All of the positions that you have said we need to draft are all going to be backups and will only get on the field if one of our players go down with injury. Check it out... LB, CB and S. My point is that the #3 WR gets onto the field a lot, especially if they are good and the offense can run 3 wide receiver sets. Unfortunately the Giants didn't have this threat and had to run the conservative 2 tight end offense most of the time. Anytime your offense gets SHUT OUT in the biggest game of the year automatically eliminates them from being called an explosive offense. I just think that adding that #3 WR is the missing link on offense and that the bench players can be drafted rounds 2-4.

The reason that Sean Alexander won the MVP this year is because Seattle had 3 good WR and could run a spread offense a lot. Defenses had to back up off the line of scrimmage to protect against the pass and there were HUGE lanes for him to run through. Tiki NEVER had that. His yards were gotten the hard way. I really think that our offense will be unstoppable with a quality #3 receiver. I'd much rather draft a rookie who can be great and a target of Eli's for many years than draft a veteran who has had a mediocre career.

I think we will have the available resources to do quite a bit in free agency (see my offseason plan thread for further clarification). Signing durable vets like Jabar Gaffney or Josh Reed would fill that void and be inexpensive. I should say, and I'm probably in the minority, that I still like Jamaar Taylor as a big-play WR.

 

We already are en excellent offensive team, even with erratic QB play. Sure, a lot of great offense have 3 solid WRs, however, not all great offensive have the receving threats we have at TE and RB.

I agree that Taylor still has potential, but he hasnt yet shown that he can stay healthy and put it all together. I think that Jackson (if available) is an opportunity to get a great player. I dont know if I'd be so set on this if our option was Moss... but the need would still be there.

I think that if our offense added a threat at #3 WR we would have the best offense in the league. That's not a joke. Maybe Indy would be better, but probably not, since they're losing Edge.

Anytime you have the best offense in the NFL you are a contender to win the SB.

I think if we only use our offseason to focus on defense and not adding a playmaker at WR we improve the defense a bit but the offense remains the same. We would be one of the better teams in the NFL but I dont think it gives us the chance to be the best. And I want to be the best.

How about if i put it this way...

We can do either A or B:

a. Use our big draft picks (1-4) on defensive players. 2 linebackers, a corner and a safety seem to be the general consensus. The only one of those 4 that I could see cracking the starting lineup would be a first round linebacker. They might be able to start over Green or Torbor, but by no means is guaratneed to be a huge upgrade. We then use the rest of the picks to add good depth to our other defensive positions.

b. We use our first pick on a WR (chad jackson) and the rest of the picks on defensive backups. I think he can really add an important element to our offense that was missing last year. It gets overlooked because we have an MVP running back who was capable of carrying the team at times. Many college DB's when asked who the best player they ever went up against said, "Chad Jackson." The other picks are still used to add depth on the bench just like in option A, but they each get bumped down a round.

I think option B makes us a better team. Have people forgotten that there we need a slot receiver? As of now, I don't think we can address this need through FA because we need that money to sign a veteran corner back.

Yes, Chad Jackson would be a fifth option. I know it's not the most important position on the field, but we've got those locked up. Im looking at our holes. The good offensive teams have that third wide receiver that can make a few big plays a game. We are missing that, big time. EA even said so.

I think come draft day Chad Jackson might very well become a top option. He has by far the best hands in the draft and if he does run a 4.3 forty he would be a great pick at 25. Im not high on 40 times but I already know this guy can play.

If we draft Jackson, I guarantee he would put up better numbers than Amani this year... even if he is a third wide receiver. Hes also great in the red zone.

Holy crap! Think how good our red zone offense could be!!! 3 tall receivers who can jump up and grab the ball. Shockey, tiki and jacobs!!!! No defense in the NFL could stop that. Period. I know D is important but our defense if pretty good when healthy, especially if we give it some depth. We could outscore any team and the team that scores the most points wins the game.

Whoa. I'm sorry but who does chad jackson have to fight for the #3 spot over? Willie ponder, tyree or taylor? He's a lock for a spot on the field. One reason that our offense was so predictable at the end of the year was because we didn't have a third wide receiver that the coaches felt confident in. We couldn't put 3 WR's out there to spread the field. Defenses were able to crowd the box and focus on Plax and then we were in trouble.

Id like to see the giants run something other than the 2 tight end sets all year. You need a good third receiver to do this. Im telling you, this is the difference between the Giants having a good offense or an elite offense.

One thing I think people tend to do is think back to the injured Giants team to assess our team needs. While it's difficult, please focus on the healthy Giants defense... one that was actually quite good but just needed some depth. The depth can be addressed through FA and draft picks 2-6.

I like your post, but I think the needs in your proposed Rounds 2 and 3, far overshadow the need for a wide receiver. That would be my 3rd priority. BTW, welcome, and don't forget to ignore the FAG 4.

Here's why I disagree. Just because we didnt have a #3 WR last year doesnt mean we don't need one. Anybody we draft at LB or CB will be a bench player, providing depth for the starters. I would much rather use our 1st round pick someone who can star from day 1 and someone that will help the team for years to come. When Amani chooses to end his great career, we will have Jackson right here to step in and replace him.

I challenge someone to name a combination of a round 1 and 2 pick that will upgrade the team more this season than a combination of Jackson and Round 2 LB.

Hey all. New Transfer from giants.com, some of you may know me as parlintm over there. Since this is my first post ill lay out my offseason expectations/hopes for the giants. Please let me know what you think. One reason I came over here was because I would offer up ideas at the old sight and people would shoot them down (or try to) but would not give me concrete or realistic alternatives. Here goes, will probably be pretty long...

I think we can all agree that the following positions will remain the same (for the most part) from last year: QB, RB, FB, OL, DL and TE.

So here's my breakdown of the remaining positions:

LB - I think that Torbor, Green and Pierce will all be starters but this unit needs some quality depth.

CB - We will sign either Allen or a comparable FA to start. The other starter will be Webster. Nickel - Will P if he can return otherwise we're looking at deloach.

S - Gibil and Butler will be starters. I have faith in both of them to hold it down, but we could definitely use some depth.

WR - Plax is a good receiver. Amani is an aging, wily veteran who is a question mark from here on. I think any production he is able to give us is a positive, especially if he can stay healthy for 16 games. After these 2 we don't have anybody. The Giants were 2nd to last in the NFL in production by the third receiver position. We had a total of 186 receiving yards from these guys. People at Giants.com argued it's because we have a good tight end but there are plenty of teams (seattle and pitt to name 2) who had a productive tight end AND a good #3 receiver. Also, if Plax or Amani goes down... so does our season. I think this position is much weaker than people realize. If we get a good #3 receiver, our offense will become much less "predictable."

DRAFT:

Round 1: Chad Jackson. I believe that getting a quality #3 WR is a top priority. Jackson would fill our need perfectly and he would be a great target for Eli for many years. Here's his scouting report.

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/scoutingr...hadjackson.html

Round 2: Best LB available. Whether we draft one in the 1st or 2nd round, the chances of him sitting on the bench to start the year are very good so I'd rather use the 1st round pick on someone that we know will start and contribute from day 1. Someone like Abdul Hodge will be available and can provide good young depth. Remember, Tatupa was a 2nd round pick last year.

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/scoutingr...abdulhodge.html

Round 3: Best corner available. Same goes for the CB position as linebacker. They probably won't be a starter but could push for playing time at the nickel. The draft is deep at this postion so there are a lot of different guys we could take here.

Round 4: Safety. This guy will be a backup to gibril and butler.

Rounds 5-7: Take best player available until we get a LB, DT and WR.

FA:

I'm assuming that we won't have too much money here to spend on FA's. The majority of our cap space will go to resigning Allen or another FA corner. We probably need to sign a punter too.

I think we could also use a vet Safety to backup or push to start in place of Butler. Also sign a DT and deep linebacker.

I want the team to look like this next year:

QB: Starter - Eli Reserves - Tim, FA

RB: Starter - Tiki 3rd down - Jacobs Resreves - Ward, Morton

FB: Finn

OL - Same

TE - Same

WR: Starters - Plax, amani, CHAD JACKSON Reserves - Late round pick, Tyree, Ponder, Taylor

DL - Same + cheap FA, late round pick

LB: Starters - Green, Pierce, Torbor Reserves - Round 2 pick, Blackburn, Eric Moore, Late round pick

S: Startes - Gibril, Butler Reserves - Round 4 pick, FA

CB: Starters - Webster, Allen Nickel - Will P or Deloach Reserves - Round 3 pick, Walker

I think that this would be a very solid team. Our offense would be so dangerous, probably top 3 in the NFL. On defense we would get lots of sacks and our linebackers would be great. I think with lots of pressure on the QB and solid LB play, Allen and Webster could definitely hold their own in the secondary. This team would contend for an NFC championship and make a superbowl run. Thoughts?