xxi-xxv Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 Seeing the cap issues in Washington, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Patten wound up being cut and I would love to have him with the G-men this season. I don't think the Skins are going to hold on to Patten assuming there is going to be no salary cap next season so there is no point of letting him go. But then again, Snyder has proved us wrong before. GATEB you are not aware of the awful ramifications for the SKINS if there is no new collective barganing agreement in place. It has been well documented that they are pretty much screwed in 06 if there is no new CBA in place as they would not be able to spread out bonus' and get under the cap. They of any team Need a new CBA to be in place for 06, what they do in 07 is completely irrelevant as to how screwed they would be in 06. Patten would be a certain cut under that scenario and very well may be released anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gateb Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 GATEB you are not aware of the awful ramifications for the SKINS if there is no new collective barganing agreement in place. It has been well documented that they are pretty much screwed in 06 if there is no new CBA in place as they would not be able to spread out bonus' and get under the cap. They of any team Need a new CBA to be in place for 06, what they do in 07 is completely irrelevant as to how screwed they would be in 06. Patten would be a certain cut under that scenario and very well may be released anyway. I've read articles regarding how bad it is and I am confident that Tagliabue will come through with the CBA. I remember back in the 2004 off-season everyone was saying how good the Skins were going but a few members were pointing out in the 2006 and eventually 2007 off-season, they are screwed terribly. I've been waiting a couple years for this and it is finally here. And I don't want this CBA shit to screw this either. Best part of it is, Skins have done virtually nothing in these past two seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxi-xxv Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 I've read articles regarding how bad it is and I am confident that Tagliabue will come through with the CBA. I remember back in the 2004 off-season everyone was saying how good the Skins were going but a few members were pointing out in the 2006 and eventually 2007 off-season, they are screwed terribly. I've been waiting a couple years for this and it is finally here. And I don't want this CBA shit to screw this either. Best part of it is, Skins have done virtually nothing in these past two seasons. they are already over this years cap by upwards of 20 mil, with no way to spread out bonus' they are screwed. Although I want a CBA to get done ASAP, I would love nothing better than for the Skins to have to pay the piper. There were Skins fans that ignored there cap hell when he would tell them this 2 years ago when they signed Griffin, Barrow, etc in 04, now its coming to fruition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gateb Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 Problem is, for going over the cap like 7 years ago, the Broncos only got their third round pick or something like that taken away. They got two super bowls out of it. Now, the Skins won't get a Super bowl out of this most likely but if they don't take action and stay over the cap and the CBA comes to an agreement, what's the penalty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxi-xxv Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 Problem is, for going over the cap like 7 years ago, the Broncos only got their third round pick or something like that taken away. They got two super bowls out of it. Now, the Skins won't get a Super bowl out of this most likely but if they don't take action and stay over the cap and the CBA comes to an agreement, what's the penalty? It is very difficult to cheat on the cap like the Niners and Broncos did at the infancy of a salary cap in the NFL. Teams are all well aware of everyone's situation and have capolgists that know just that matter. I would suspect the penalties are stiff now and the competition does not allow one to cheat on the cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUND Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 Gateb if you need me to explain this again I will but take my word for it. No CBA means the Skins are GUTTED this upcoming season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUND Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 Give credit where it's due .... even though I don't necessarily agree with Armstead's offseason plan, his call for drafting Chad Jackson prior to the guy's stock exploding at the combine was keen insight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parlintm Posted February 27, 2006 Author Share Posted February 27, 2006 I disagree with a WR making immediate dividends. Besides Randy Moss the list of rookie WR's who had good years is very very small. Combine that with him only going to get maybe 3 or 4 looks a game he wont be making an immediate impact. Look at last years rookie WR's #3 overall Braylon Edwards 32 receptions for 512 yards in 10 games (7 starts, did get a knee injury) #7 overall Troy Williamson 24 for 372 in 14 games (3 starts) #10 overall Mike Williams 29 for 350 in 14 games (4 starts) #21 overall Matt Jones 36 for 432 in 16 games (1 start) #22 overall Mark Clayton 44 for 471 14 games (10 starts) #27 overall Roddy White 29 for 446 16 games (8 starts) Not a real stellar group. Edwards would have had much better stats had he not blown out his knee, and Matt Jones was learning the position but finding someone that can give you 30 catches in free agency or later in the draft is not difficult. So while finding a replacement for Toomer is a priority I don't think drafting a WR over someone on the defensive side of the ball (all things being equal) is necessarly the right thing to do. In contrast to the WR's look at the immediate impact that was brought on by rookie LB's Demarcus Ware, Shawn Merriman, and Lofa Tatupu (albeit he was a 2nd rounder). Even Derrick Johnson who had a very quiet year had 79 tackles as a rookie. Last year we had 186 COMBINED yards by our #3 WR position. I'm not saying we need a guy to come in and contribute an 800 yard season but any of those numbers listed above would be a big improvement for us. I don't think Chad Jackson would have any problem putting up 400-600 yards next season. That said, i've heard he had a great combine and his stock may raise out of our range. By no means do I want the Giants to overextend themselves but if a receiver of Jackson's caliber is left when we pick, I would be all for it. That means Holmes, Jackson and maybe, but im not sold yet, moss too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parlintm Posted February 27, 2006 Author Share Posted February 27, 2006 Also... I believe Jackson could put up 500 receiving yards and 4 touchdowns this year at the third WR position. That's an improvement of 320 yards and 4 td's over our other possible #3 receivers. This would be a HUGE upgrade at a thin position. A rookie tackle could put up 85-90 tackles if they push torbor out of the starting lineup, but in the scheme of things... it's not a big improvement over the production that we could get out of torbor while having a round 2 pick to back him up. I just see a quality receiver having a bigger impact than a round 1 LB over a round 2 LB. And any CB or S picked after the first round won't be starting so the effect of dropping them a spot in the draft doesn't hurt us that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank_Grimes Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 Give credit where it's due .... even though I don't necessarily agree with Armstead's offseason plan, his call for drafting Chad Jackson prior to the guy's stock exploding at the combine was keen insight. I agree. Major props Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Money Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 Also... I believe Jackson could put up 500 receiving yards and 4 touchdowns this year at the third WR position. That's an improvement of 320 yards and 4 td's over our other possible #3 receivers. This would be a HUGE upgrade at a thin position. A rookie tackle could put up 85-90 tackles if they push torbor out of the starting lineup, but in the scheme of things... it's not a big improvement over the production that we could get out of torbor while having a round 2 pick to back him up. I just see a quality receiver having a bigger impact than a round 1 LB over a round 2 LB. And any CB or S picked after the first round won't be starting so the effect of dropping them a spot in the draft doesn't hurt us that much. I think you make an interesting point in that Chad Jackson vs. Round 2 WR > D'Qwell Jackson vs. Round 2 WLB. This a fair point, although I think you must consider that currently we don't have any viable starter at WLB. Torbor is irrelevant to the debate, because he is a SLB. Emmons is a decent player, but he is not well-suited to be a WLB ... and at age 32 (soon to be 33), he does not have much of a future here. As such, IMO the need to address WLB far exceeds the need to add a 3rd WR (for reasons previously discussed -- Plax, Shockey, Toomer, Tiki -- though I do agree 3rd WR is a need). The same applies to FS, where our current reinforcements consist of James Butler and only James Butler, thus prioritizing FS over 3rd WR as well. Therefore, I think that after CB, WLB and FS are our most pressing needs. I would like to see all of these positions, WR included, addressed in free agency. I have always felt that free agency was the proper avenue to address need, while the draft is an excellent resource for acquiring pure talent. That's why I hate discussing draft picks within the context of need, because I am a firm believer in getting the best player available. That being said (and I'm sure this will be a point of disagreement), I think that D'Qwell is a better football player than Chad, and factoring in this concept of "need," I feel that he would be a smarter pick at 25. You make two solid points in support of Chad, in that he fits both short-term (3rd WR) and long-term (Toomer's replacement), and the difference between drafting him at 25 vs. drafting another WR at 56 exceeds the difference of D'Qwell at 25 vs. another LB at 56. My response to the first point is that D'Qwell also fits short-term and long-term needs ... we need short- and long-term fixes at WLB, and he can be the solution to both. He can start right away and man the position for several years. With regards to the second point, despite the depth at OLB in this draft, I think D'Qwell is head and shoulders above other LB's that will be available at pick 56. And although there are 3rd round LB's I like a lot (Travis Williams and Rocky McIntosh), I don't want to wait around with my fingers crossed hoping at least one of them remains ont he board at pick 87. Like I've said, I think we can find an inexpensive solution to 3rd WR in free agency. This all may be a moot point since Chad may have ran his way into the top 20, but I will say that if the back of our 2006 1st Round pick's jersey reads "Jackson," I will be very satisfied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GiantsRevival Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 With Green, Alexander, Williams, Allen, Greisen all gone. There is no way we draft an offensive player in the 1st round. As much as I agree that Jackson is a great prospect there is no way we draft him. He won't be there when we pick nor will the Giants trade up to get a WR. We will draft a CB, FS, or OLB in the first round. There are plenty of fast WR's in the draft we can draft in the later rounds. I think Jamaar Taylor could fill the 3rd WR spot if given a chance and if he can stay healthy. One again our offense is set, no need to spend a #1 pick on a position that already has talent and starters in place. We will sign a veteran WR in case there is an injury and draft one some time after the 1st round. If there is a great WR that slips into the second round I would have no problem moving up to get him but our 1st rounder should be defense. A first round FS or OLB could start from day one. A CB could contribute just as much in the nickel defense as a 3rd WR could as the 5th option in our offense. We have far more holes to fill on defense. A 3rd WR is a luxury not a need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GiantsRevival Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 I understand injuries on this team is a concern. But, you can't draft based on what if Burress or Toomer gets hurt. You could say that about any position. What if Eli gets hurt? Should we draft a QB in the 1st round just in case he gets hurt? No. There is no way a WR will or should be picked in the 1st round. We have 2 starting Quality WR's and a young talent that has been untapped in Taylor. Tyree if resigned is also a decent depth WR. We have plenty of time to replace Toomer. He had a very good year last year. With Burress, Toomer, Shockey, and Barber how many balls would this young kid really get? Not enough to warrent a 1st round pick. We are ready to compete now. We are a few defensive players away from being one of the most balanced teams in the NFL. Stahan, Tiki, and Toomer are getting up there in age. Now is the time to go for it. And if we draft a WR it would be drafting for the future. That would send the wrong message to the veterans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Money Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 I understand injuries on this team is a concern. But, you can't draft based on what if Burress or Toomer gets hurt. You could say that about any position. What if Eli gets hurt? Should we draft a QB in the 1st round just in case he gets hurt? No. There is no way a WR will or should be picked in the 1st round. We have 2 starting Quality WR's and a young talent that has been untapped in Taylor. Tyree if resigned is also a decent depth WR. We have plenty of time to replace Toomer. He had a very good year last year. With Burress, Toomer, Shockey, and Barber how many balls would this young kid really get? Not enough to warrent a 1st round pick. We are ready to compete now. We are a few defensive players away from being one of the most balanced teams in the NFL. Stahan, Tiki, and Toomer are getting up there in age. Now is the time to go for it. And if we draft a WR it would be drafting for the future. That would send the wrong message to the veterans. The only way I see them going WR or OT in the 1st round is if the hit another grand slam in free agency and get 2-3 solid starters in the back seven. Unfortunately, the likelihood of the Giants getting both, say, Ronde Barber and Will Witherspoon is pretty slim. Barring another extremely productive FA season, I cannot see them going offense with the first pick... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesShowMeTheWay Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 If we're looking at a 3rd WR I believe Maurice Stovall would be a good fit as a 3rd WR for us. http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/scoutingr...icestovall.html If you look at the notes section on this website it says "This guy can be a terror to cover in the red zone" I know we weren't that good in the red zone this past year so he'd be a great fit for our offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GiantsRevival Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 The only way I see them going WR or OT in the 1st round is if the hit another grand slam in free agency and get 2-3 solid starters in the back seven. Unfortunately, the likelihood of the Giants getting both, say, Ronde Barber and Will Witherspoon is pretty slim. Barring another extremely productive FA season, I cannot see them going offense with the first pick... I agree If we land a FS, CB, and a OLB in free agency then I would have no problem with a WR in the 1st. I am of the same thinking as you that we will have plenty of freed up money for free agency. But to expect another offseason like our last might be a little over the top. And you know I'm an optomistic person. But I would really like to see a young speedy defender with play making ability come out of this draft. Someone that can improve us now and in future. We could add a solid #3 wr for a reasonable price in free agency. We have not drafted a stud OLB in the 1st round since 1984 and that player was Carl Banks. I would love for us to invest a 1st round pick into the LBer core. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gateb Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 If we're looking at a 3rd WR I believe Maurice Stovall would be a good fit as a 3rd WR for us. http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/scoutingr...icestovall.html If you look at the notes section on this website it says "This guy can be a terror to cover in the red zone" I know we weren't that good in the red zone this past year so he'd be a great fit for our offense. If Jackson does not fall to us in the first round, I believe that would be a solid pick in the second round Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesShowMeTheWay Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 If Jackson does not fall to us in the first round, I believe that would be a solid pick in the second round Eh, I think Stovall could get the job done as well especially for what we need right now. Here is the link to the red zone %. http://www.sportsnetwork.com/default.asp?c...l-inside-20.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gateb Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Eh, I think Stovall could get the job done as well especially for what we need right now. Here is the link to the red zone %. http://www.sportsnetwork.com/default.asp?c...l-inside-20.htm Well, we need something that'll light a fire under our offenses ass especially in the red zone and hopefully a guy like Stovall can contribute to that. We need someone at WR, whether it's a veteran or a a rookie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesShowMeTheWay Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Well, we need something that'll light a fire under our offenses ass especially in the red zone and hopefully a guy like Stovall can contribute to that. We need someone at WR, whether it's a veteran or a a rookie. Yeah I agree but I also think Eli's progression will help with that as well. We need to utilize Shockey more in the redzone as well as using more screens to Tiki. I mean we have the weapons, we just need to execute more. Stovall would just be the icing on the cake for our red zone offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gateb Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Yeah I agree but I also think Eli's progression will help with that as well. We need to utilize Shockey more in the redzone as well as using more screens to Tiki. I mean we have the weapons, we just need to execute more. Stovall would just be the icing on the cake for our red zone offense. And Plax needs to play up to where his size, jumping ability, and hands allow him to. On some of his catches that he made jumping, my rough guess is that he has gotten up to 6'9 on occasions while jumping if not more. With that ability and his great hands, can't you score more in the red zone and be more of a threat? If only every player in the league played up to his potential.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GiantsRevival Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Well, we need something that'll light a fire under our offenses ass especially in the red zone and hopefully a guy like Stovall can contribute to that. We need someone at WR, whether it's a veteran or a a rookie. Somehow I don't think a 3rd WR will help us all that much in the redzone. Do we have room for improvement in the Red Zone? Yes. But we were greatly improved in that area this year as compared to last year. I think Eli growing as a QB is all we need in that area. Burress, Shockey, and Toomer are all very good in the Red Zone. Each of them had 7 TDs last year. But if Stovall is there in the second I would not be opposed to that pick. But then again if there is a defensive guy that is available that fell to us, that could help us, I'd rather us go in that direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gateb Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Somehow I don't think a 3rd WR will help us all that much in the redzone. Do we have room for improvement in the Red Zone? Yes. But we were greatly improved in that area this year as compared to last year. I think Eli growing as a QB is all we need in that area. Burress, Shockey, and Toomer are all very good in the Red Zone. Each of them had 7 TDs last year. But if Stovall is there in the second I would not be opposed to that pick. But then again if there is a defensive guy that is available that fell to us, that could help us, I'd rather us go in that direction. Not exactly as a third WR but just another threat. This has been a problem for a while now. Despite the great amount of talent we have in our WR corps, we still haven't found the guy who can be much more of a threat in the red zone. 7 TDs for each of them looks very good but there are a lot of plays these guys left on the field. Well, maybe not Toomer. Toomer is an exception. He overacheives possibly IMO in the red zone. Shockey is borderline, needs to play harder. Plax needs to prove soemthing though. Game planning is also a factor. I feel that Hufnagel is finally getting a good grasp on how to call the plays better and I think by year 3, the offense will get a grasp on Hufnagel's system. So that should make for good things. I am not satisfied with our red zone play and I firmly believe that getting a quality WR is a need for this off-seaosn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Money Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 I think our struggles in the red zone mostly stem from the QB position moreso than anywhere else. And honestly, how often would the 3rd WR see the field inside the 20? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesShowMeTheWay Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Somehow I don't think a 3rd WR will help us all that much in the redzone. Do we have room for improvement in the Red Zone? Yes. But we were greatly improved in that area this year as compared to last year. I think Eli growing as a QB is all we need in that area. Burress, Shockey, and Toomer are all very good in the Red Zone. Each of them had 7 TDs last year. But if Stovall is there in the second I would not be opposed to that pick. But then again if there is a defensive guy that is available that fell to us, that could help us, I'd rather us go in that direction. I agree that we need to improve and that Eli's development will make our red zone offense more productive but if Stovall is there it's almost a sure bet that we should take him because he'd add another dimension to our offense, and also could become Amani's future replacement. This is why I would like us to concentrate on defense for our 1st pick and then choose Stovall in the 2nd round. With all this said we can't forget about Jamaar Taylor. Though injured, this guy has shown what Tim Carter never could when he was on the field: He is a playmaker. A healthy Taylor definately improves our offense because we all saw sparks of great playmaking ability when he was on the field. The way I look at it our WR core would consist of Burress, Toomer, Taylor, Stovall, and Tyree, and after Amani moves on (though I do pray we can get him a ring) Plax, Stovall, and Taylor would be a lethal 1-2-3 combo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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