Schoen and the Cap

[gmenroc]

Ughh...I know there is need for drafting a CB...but please dear baby Jesus let it not be with either of the 1st two picks.

Gordon, Castro-Fields, Jobe, McCreary, others...guys to be had in later rounds.

[Nas]

15 hours ago, gmenroc said:

Yeah..Bradberry had a down year, so it's restructure or cut...which sucks...because that will ultimately make our defense worse

I don't mind cutting a good player if he's not living up to his salary.    That should be, in my opinion, the guiding principle.... if you're a C+ player, but get paid like an A, player, you're underperforming... no ifs ands or buts about it.  

I've always contended that a team full of blue collar C+/B players is a lot better than one having a couple of super stars and D players otherwise.  

[Nas]

14 hours ago, BlueInCanada said:

If and thats a big IF, Barkley can bounce back and we can give him a contract akin to something like 7 to 8 million a year, for two or three years, but heavy in injury outs, I'd have no problem with it.

It gives Daboll a playmaker, and the new QB some security.

However if he bounces back and say some team comes calling at week 5 or 6 offering a third then pull the fucking trigger.

If he doesnt bounce back then we wouldn't be able to trade him for peanuts anyways, I don't even think we could trade him now for a 5th.

What new QB?  DJ has done very well under the circumstances he was put in... it's the coaches who call the plays for him to be the RB which lead to injuries... it's why RBs don't last in this league.... DJ has been given the RG3 treatment and it needs to stop.    Until DJ gets a decent OL and is allowed to jell in yet another offense, you can't just give up on him and get some... who exactly?  

[Nas]

14 hours ago, BlueInCanada said:

I also think we are going Saftey/CB with one of our first round picks.

So I think that also seals Bradberrys fate.

I'm not going to argue with anything they do... I'm just tired of not addressing the OL in a meaningful way... Yes you can argue that OL Rookies aren't gong to help you immediately and the counter argument is... neither will rookie CBs... or anything for that matter.    And then there's the best player available mentality and I don't mind that either... I want value... I don't want swings for the fences any more.... The Eli Apple pick still hurts to this fucking day... 

[CrazedDogs]

1 hour ago, Nas said:

I've always contended that a team full of blue collar C+/B players is a lot better than one having a couple of super stars and D players otherwise.  

the Rams kind of busted up that theory. 

[Nas]

26 minutes ago, CrazedDogs said:

the Rams kind of busted up that theory. 

The Patriots dynasty > Rams   (the Bengals were overmatched by either measure also)

Heck our own 2007/8 and 2011/12 SB winning teams were the blue collar types.  

[gmenroc]

I think the point was that the Rams won by bringing in A+ players at a ton of positions...not that you can't win with a couple A's and a glut of Bs/Cs

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

On 2/21/2022 at 2:52 PM, BronxRik said:

Dave Gettleman---> <---NY Giants

Plus he did not even kiss them first... before he pumped them without grease/oil, totally dry.  He is playing golf while we suffer.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

On 2/21/2022 at 3:57 PM, CrazedDogs said:

You think he chose to retire? I don't.

It was either retire or get embarrassed with being fired with a foot up his ass.  Face saving is all over this.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

On 2/21/2022 at 9:08 PM, BlueInCanada said:

I think you take the guys you can.

Picks 5 and 7 can land some of the best talent in the draft, guys like Linderbaum and Hamilton who have best of the position value.

Trading down to the bottom/mid of round one or stacking day three picks just gives us camp bodies and bench guys we could just get from signing undrafted players. Find guys who you think are going to fit into the team your trying to build.  

Next year we won't compete, we are going to be carrying dead cap from the cuts and a completely gutted roster, as well as dead weight at QB and RB IMO. 

Best bet is the rookies get a year to develop and hopefully we can sign a RT for longer than two years and a IDL player as well. 

Then go after it in 2023 when we have 100+ million in cap space.  

This is kind of like Gettys first year, we are going to purge 30 to 40 players from this team and start from a blank slate. 

There's really no other way to build a team.

Unless you think you can win while you rebuild lol 

I think what happens in any sport in and around NY is that owners start to think we have a win first mentality when that is not true at all.  We can take one or two years of a losing record if we see active good rebuilding going on.  A piece here or there to fix a shit show does not go over very well here.  That is the collective mindset over the last fifty years.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

On 2/21/2022 at 11:41 PM, gmenroc said:

No, I dont.  But I think he should've accepted his firing, i.e. what he deserved, as opposed to putting up the charade of retirement.  #cowardly

Yes very cowardly.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

On 2/22/2022 at 1:18 PM, mastershake said:

One would have to hope the fact that there's a new front office regime and new coach in Daboll in town running the show, that this would entice some to want to be a part of this.

But yeah, the giants are a depressing franchise right now, with 2022 likely to be a transitory year.

Realistically I don't see Schoen trading Barkley, so 2022 is a year where we're turning over the roster and finally figuring out that Jones and Barkley aren't the future here; I already know that aren't the future, but it hasn't dawned on giants management yet.

Definitely Barkley... Jones might have a little bit of tread left on the tires.  You get a running back in the sixth or seventh round... not a first or second round pick unless he is Barry Sanders or Walter Payton.     

[Nas]

8 hours ago, gmenroc said:

I think the point was that the Rams won by bringing in A+ players at a ton of positions...not that you can't win with a couple A's and a glut of Bs/Cs

There are outliers.. the problem with have a ton of A+ players is that you run out of money pretty quickly so their triumph is short lived whereas the dynasty that was the Patriots proved to be quite sustainable.    

[gmenroc]

49 minutes ago, Nas said:

There are outliers.. the problem with have a ton of A+ players is that you run out of money pretty quickly so their triumph is short lived whereas the dynasty that was the Patriots proved to be quite sustainable.    

Until those players agree to play for less to keep the team together and thereby creating a super team...and not just one guy.  I mean...Brady could've forced a much, much bigger deal, but he chose less to keep more pieces.  If a couple guys do that, then you have a significant advantage over other teams.

Winning also heals a number of wounds.   Pats winning a few SBs kept that ball rolling another 10 years.  Players wanted to go there and accepted less, assumingly so, to win.  Kinda a domino effect.  We'll have to see what Mac commands and if he can take the baton

[Nas]

1 hour ago, gmenroc said:

Until those players agree to play for less to keep the team together and thereby creating a super team...and not just one guy.  I mean...Brady could've forced a much, much bigger deal, but he chose less to keep more pieces.  If a couple guys do that, then you have a significant advantage over other teams.

Winning also heals a number of wounds.   Pats winning a few SBs kept that ball rolling another 10 years.  Players wanted to go there and accepted less, assumingly so, to win.  Kinda a domino effect.  We'll have to see what Mac commands and if he can take the baton

True but a lot of these guys weren’t super stars.  But because they were quite capable (B/B+), they made each other better…. In essence the team was greater than the sum of its parts.

[BlueInCanada]

On 2/23/2022 at 6:59 AM, Nas said:

What new QB?  DJ has done very well under the circumstances he was put in... it's the coaches who call the plays for him to be the RB which lead to injuries... it's why RBs don't last in this league.... DJ has been given the RG3 treatment and it needs to stop.    Until DJ gets a decent OL and is allowed to jell in yet another offense, you can't just give up on him and get some... who exactly?  

So what we just keep making excuses for his play for the next 10 years? 

This is his prove it year, and there's a reason why the Giants are active in the QB FA market. 

Jones plays well or takes a step forward, then great you tag him next year and work out a deal.

Jones gets hurt again for another two or three games or plays like he has and he's not a Giant anymore.

[BlueInCanada]

On 2/23/2022 at 10:47 AM, gmenroc said:

I think the point was that the Rams won by bringing in A+ players at a ton of positions...not that you can't win with a couple A's and a glut of Bs/Cs

That's soemthing that I've always said about the narrative surrounding the Pats dynasties, that Billy and Tom took average scrubs to the SB.

The Pats had some of the best and highest paid players during those runs.

Their secondary and LB core were non stop pro-bowlers, and had two or even three HoF players in it.

Their Oline was probably second in the league to the Giants at the time. 

Everyone talks about Billy taking a bunch of Chase Blackburn lunch box players to the SB when it couldn't be further from the truth IMO. 

Look at the 10 SB winning teams and point out one with just a bunch of average players and you won't see any lol 

[gmenroc]

1 hour ago, BlueInCanada said:

That's soemthing that I've always said about the narrative surrounding the Pats dynasties, that Billy and Tom took average scrubs to the SB.

The Pats had some of the best and highest paid players during those runs.

Their secondary and LB core were non stop pro-bowlers, and had two or even three HoF players in it.

Their Oline was probably second in the league to the Giants at the time. 

Everyone talks about Billy taking a bunch of Chase Blackburn lunch box players to the SB when it couldn't be further from the truth IMO. 

Look at the 10 SB winning teams and point out one with just a bunch of average players and you won't see any lol 

That still begs the question...are they Pro Bowl/HoF calibur because of their own play or are they Pro Bowl/HoF because they were on multiple championship teams?

It's not unlike the chicken/egg dilemma (which came first).

Basically, we'd have to evaluate the players who were successful with the Pats who then went and played elsewhere.  What was their success rate on their new teams? Did they lead their new team or did they go to another team abundant with quality players?

A more in-depth analysis needs done before drawing any concrete conclusions...at least in my opinion

[Nas]

4 hours ago, BlueInCanada said:

That's soemthing that I've always said about the narrative surrounding the Pats dynasties, that Billy and Tom took average scrubs to the SB.

The Pats had some of the best and highest paid players during those runs.

Their secondary and LB core were non stop pro-bowlers, and had two or even three HoF players in it.

Their Oline was probably second in the league to the Giants at the time. 

Everyone talks about Billy taking a bunch of Chase Blackburn lunch box players to the SB when it couldn't be further from the truth IMO. 

Look at the 10 SB winning teams and point out one with just a bunch of average players and you won't see any lol 

They're pro-bowlers because their total was larger than the sum of their parts.     I still contend they looked better together than each one of them individually.    Heck just look at the OL's we let go with... they sucked here.. yet they played a whole lot better on other teams.   

[BlueInCanada]

33 minutes ago, Nas said:

They're pro-bowlers because their total was larger than the sum of their parts.     I still contend they looked better together than each one of them individually.    Heck just look at the OL's we let go with... they sucked here.. yet they played a whole lot better on other teams.   

Yes that's what a teams called.

But without them they probably don't reach the SB.

Look at our 2007 team.

You take Plax away we don't reach the SB. 

You take Strahan away we don't win or read the SB.

This whole idea that the "sum of a team" of average players can overcome the loss of play maker or an "A" guy as refered to here, has never been proven or even seen in the NFL. 

Look no further than 2008.

 

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

7 hours ago, BlueInCanada said:

So what we just keep making excuses for his play for the next 10 years? 

This is his prove it year, and there's a reason why the Giants are active in the QB FA market. 

Jones plays well or takes a step forward, then great you tag him next year and work out a deal.

Jones gets hurt again for another two or three games or plays like he has and he's not a Giant anymore.

Works for me... no sentimentality.  If DJ leaves and does better elsewhere then GOD Speed John Glenn to him big time.  If he fails to produce next year it is time to move on.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

7 hours ago, BlueInCanada said:

That's soemthing that I've always said about the narrative surrounding the Pats dynasties, that Billy and Tom took average scrubs to the SB.

The Pats had some of the best and highest paid players during those runs.

Their secondary and LB core were non stop pro-bowlers, and had two or even three HoF players in it.

Their Oline was probably second in the league to the Giants at the time. 

Everyone talks about Billy taking a bunch of Chase Blackburn lunch box players to the SB when it couldn't be further from the truth IMO. 

Look at the 10 SB winning teams and point out one with just a bunch of average players and you won't see any lol 

This... what you will see are a lot of top-notch players taking pay cuts to be on a winner.  Thinking and knowing they will get their money back in endorsements while being on a winning team

[mastershake]

I just don't understand the logic that this is a "prove it" year for Daniel Jones. 

2022 is going to be a transitory, roster turnover year for the Giants. It's probably the worst environment for a Quarterback to "prove themselves" in.

We have 4 out of 5 OL starter spots currently unfilled, and only 1 reliable starting OL Andrew Thomas. Given Schoen's insistence on keeping Barkley, we're likely going to have little cap firepower to invest in OL in free agency (maybe bring in one starter?), and will have to rely on the draft for the rest...meaning, at best, we get maybe MAYBE a below average OL this year (as opposed to a bottom of the barrel OL last year). Depth on the OL will be an issue as well. Even three backup caliber players we had, Hernandez, Solder, Price, are now free agents and gone.

In three seasons, he's proven he can't stay healthy. He missed 6 games last year, and played injured (when he shouldn't have) in at least one more. Missed 3 games the year before and was clearly injured in a few more. Also, injured and missed a few games his rookie season. Plus this latest injury might be more significant.

I can already tell you his 2022 season is unlikely to be a great one, and we'll likely still be left with the same question marks when he hits free agency in 2023...and then what? You're not going to sign him to any kind of big deal. He'll likely walk. Maybe you can retain him on the cheap, as you draft and develop a 2023 QB draft pick, on like a 1 yr $7M deal or some shit like that, or he'll go elsewhere and MAYBE have a semi-okay career, or be a career backup.

[gmenroc]

Two things...I don't think Schoen is hell bent on keeping Barkley just because he cut Booker.  Moving both players is still possible, maybe even likely if there are reports coming in offering a 4th for Barkley.  I don't see teams sniffing around too much if he was as off limits as some suggest.  

Secondly, wonder what the trade value on Jones would be?  He's gonna play for the Giants this year, so it's a moot point, but wonder if there is a 2nd rounder available for him given he is a QB and he is still on rookie deal.

[mastershake]

I just don't get the Giant fans who are like "Well we don't know what Daniel Jones is because he's never had a good OL to block for him"

As if we're going to magically get a good OL to block for him in 2022. Spoiler alert: unless Schoen pulls a rabbit out of his hat with trades/cuts, and brings in at least 4 good, starting capable veteran lineman and/or premium draft pick lineman, we're not going to have a good OL this year).

We're going to be asking ourselves the same questions about him a year from now as we are now "Well what would he have been if he had a good OL???"