Flores suing nfl, giants, Broncos and dolphins

[CrazedDogs]

what's this I hear about Flores' all white legal team? Is dude serious? 

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

19 hours ago, boohyah said:

I'm here all week.

 

18 hours ago, Nas said:

 Well played.

Another Belichick savant flames out.  Who would have thunk it... 

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

1 hour ago, CrazedDogs said:

what's this I hear about Flores' all white legal team? Is dude serious? 

Not a Johnnie Cochran to be seen.  Not a good look.  Too tied in with Daddy Belichick and then to shit in his face like this.  Should have been a good boy and gone running back to Belichick and then rebooted for another run in two to four years.  Or headed up a college program.  He had a lot of good press as the Dolphins canned him after leading a semi successful program.  No this.  He went full on Kapernick without his talent, just causes, perspicacity or ability to feel the moods out there. 

[jranieli]

Flores has been hired by Pittsburgh as an assistant 

[BronxRik]

I still don't get it. The Rooney Rule says teams need to interview people of color. It doesn't say teams have to hire people of color. The Broncos and Giants did just that. How did this lawsuit even get beyond a thought? And how is Stephen Ross supposedly offering $100,000 per game to tank the season related to minority hiring practices? From a legal standpoint, the whole thing is baffling. 

[BlueInCanada]

3 hours ago, BronxRik said:

I still don't get it. The Rooney Rule says teams need to interview people of color. It doesn't say teams have to hire people of color. The Broncos and Giants did just that. How did this lawsuit even get beyond a thought? And how is Stephen Ross supposedly offering $100,000 per game to tank the season related to minority hiring practices? From a legal standpoint, the whole thing is baffling. 

That's the thing I don't understand. 

He claims the Giants didn't give him a a fair shake despite the Giants literally reaching out to him an hour after firing Judge and Mara creaming his pants over him. 

Unless he has cod hard proof that the Giants hired Deboll before he had his interview I don't see his case. 

The Broncos claim that they didn't give him a proper interview sure, could be true, but that isn't breaking any rule just a shitty thing that Elway and the Owner didn't pay much attention to him.

And like Rik said if an owner is trying to bridge coaches to tank that's a whole other can of worms.

Sure the league has a minority coaching problem but I don't see what Flores is trying to achieve.

[BronxRik]

17 hours ago, BlueInCanada said:

That's the thing I don't understand. 

He claims the Giants didn't give him a a fair shake despite the Giants literally reaching out to him an hour after firing Judge and Mara creaming his pants over him. 

Unless he has cod hard proof that the Giants hired Deboll before he had his interview I don't see his case. 

The Broncos claim that they didn't give him a proper interview sure, could be true, but that isn't breaking any rule just a shitty thing that Elway and the Owner didn't pay much attention to him.

And like Rik said if an owner is trying to bridge coaches to tank that's a whole other can of worms.

Sure the league has a minority coaching problem but I don't see what Flores is trying to achieve.

Also, Flores work with Tua nowhere compares to Daboll's work with Allen and in case nobody noticed, we have a QB that needs to be coached up. I'd venture to say if Daboll was black and Flores was white, Daboll would still get the job. 

[JayD]

How does the NFL have a minority coaching problem? Black males represent 6-7% of the population. 
 

Saying coaches should look more like the players or whatever is ridiculous. That would be black privilege. Players are never hired based on skin color. They get hired cause they are the best this country has to offer. 

[CrazedDogs]

35 minutes ago, JayD said:

How does the NFL have a minority coaching problem? Black males represent 6-7% of the population. 
 

Saying coaches should look more like the players or whatever is ridiculous. That would be black privilege. Players are never hired based on skin color. They get hired cause they are the best this country has to offer. 

it is an oddly low percentage of coaches though, given like 60% of the people who play the game at a high level are black males. 

however - its also clearly a massively overstated discrepancy. Being a good coach doesn't require the same traits as being a great player. It doesn't even require being a good player. There's very little overlap in the skills required to be a good coach compared to being a good player. 

And at least within the media, there's definitely a presumption that darker skin is inherently more athletic. Don't forget how many talking heads said Daniel Jones was the traditional pocket passer without mobility, and Dwayne Haskins was the modern, mobile NFL QB.

But if that's going on with something as easy to prove as measurable athletic talent, imagine how widespread it must be in the inverse, when it comes to things that can't easily be measured?

 

[BlueInCanada]

11 hours ago, JayD said:

How does the NFL have a minority coaching problem? Black males represent 6-7% of the population. 
 

Saying coaches should look more like the players or whatever is ridiculous. That would be black privilege. Players are never hired based on skin color. They get hired cause they are the best this country has to offer. 

In a league that is 60-70% black players for the last 30 years, one NFL HC is black.

We're not saying that 60-70% of coaches should be black, but the fact that there's only one is silly and I don't see how you can say there isnt a problem lol

[BlueInCanada]

23 hours ago, CrazedDogs said:

it is an oddly low percentage of coaches though, given like 60% of the people who play the game at a high level are black males. 

however - its also clearly a massively overstated discrepancy. Being a good coach doesn't require the same traits as being a great player. It doesn't even require being a good player. There's very little overlap in the skills required to be a good coach compared to being a good player. 

And at least within the media, there's definitely a presumption that darker skin is inherently more athletic. Don't forget how many talking heads said Daniel Jones was the traditional pocket passer without mobility, and Dwayne Haskins was the modern, mobile NFL QB.

But if that's going on with something as easy to prove as measurable athletic talent, imagine how widespread it must be in the inverse, when it comes to things that can't easily be measured?

 

Look at Cupp this year.

Guy put together one of the best seasons a WR has had in the NFL but he was just refered to as the "typical slot WR" i.e. a guy of his skin tone can't be a play making WR in the NFL anymore.   

But that's another topic. 

I think Leftwhich is a good example of the problem in the NFL.

He's been an amazing coordinator with nothing but praise about him and his coaching ability. 

Yet here he is another year without a HC offer. 

Meanwhile we are hiring ST coordinators because Billy gives them a pat on the back, as our HC.  

(Not saying the Giants are racist)  

Guy like Adam Gase gets chance after chance at HC. 

It's more of a problem of the NFL cycling in new talent at HC and recycling old retreads at HC. 

[Nas]

14 hours ago, BlueInCanada said:

In a league that is 60-70% black players for the last 30 years, one NFL HC is black.

We're not saying that 60-70% of coaches should be black, but the fact that there's only one is silly and I don't see how you can say there isnt a problem lol

There's a stigma... it's like an unspoken word... White QBs tend to be "cerebral"... black QBs are "Athletic"... White players in general tend to be "cerebral"... blacks are "Athletic"... translate to coaching... no one cares how athletic the coach is....  While it's stinks the # of black coaches, there are only 32 positions and the competition can be stiff... The obvious bias here is that if you 2 fully qualified coaches and let's assume for the sake of argument they are tied in every trait possible... but one of them is white and one is black, who do you think gets the job?

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

7 hours ago, BlueInCanada said:

Look at Cupp this year.

Guy put together one of the best seasons a WR has had in the NFL but he was just refered to as the "typical slot WR" i.e. a guy of his skin tone can't be a play making WR in the NFL anymore.   

But that's another topic. 

I think Leftwhich is a good example of the problem in the NFL.

He's been an amazing coordinator with nothing but praise about him and his coaching ability. 

Yet here he is another year without a HC offer. 

Meanwhile we are hiring ST coordinators because Billy gives them a pat on the back, as our HC.  

(Not saying the Giants are racist)  

Guy like Adam Gase gets chance after chance at HC. 

It's more of a problem of the NFL cycling in new talent at HC and recycling old retreads at HC. 

I agree with a lot of this... most of it in fact.  Unless they are drop dead going to make it NFL coaches should mostly be ex head coaches or Offensive/Defensive coordinators at the pro or high college levels at least.  Flores is a head case and went about it the wrong way.  Bill Belichick's coaching tree is too tainted IMHO.

[CrazedDogs]

9 hours ago, BlueInCanada said:

Look at Cupp this year.

Guy put together one of the best seasons a WR has had in the NFL but he was just refered to as the "typical slot WR" i.e. a guy of his skin tone can't be a play making WR in the NFL anymore.   

But that's another topic. 

I think Leftwhich is a good example of the problem in the NFL.

He's been an amazing coordinator with nothing but praise about him and his coaching ability. 

Yet here he is another year without a HC offer. 

Meanwhile we are hiring ST coordinators because Billy gives them a pat on the back, as our HC.  

(Not saying the Giants are racist)  

Guy like Adam Gase gets chance after chance at HC. 

It's more of a problem of the NFL cycling in new talent at HC and recycling old retreads at HC. 

Yeah, those are two good examples.

I've had Leftwich pegged for a head coach since he was playing for the Jaguars. I was hoping he'd get a look for us.

[JayD]

On 2/22/2022 at 5:29 PM, BlueInCanada said:

In a league that is 60-70% black players for the last 30 years, one NFL HC is black.

We're not saying that 60-70% of coaches should be black, but the fact that there's only one is silly and I don't see how you can say there isnt a problem lol

They are not players because they are black. They are player’s cause they are the best at what they do. 
 

Only problem I see is being forced to hire anyone based on skin color. Do you think owners are saying to themselves, ‘well I think he’s the best guy for the job, but unfortunately he’s black’? 
 

No they hire who they feel is the best man for the job. As any employer should have the right to do. 

[CrazedDogs]

43 minutes ago, JayD said:

They are not players because they are black. They are player’s cause they are the best at what they do. 
 

Only problem I see is being forced to hire anyone based on skin color. Do you think owners are saying to themselves, ‘well I think he’s the best guy for the job, but unfortunately he’s black’? 
 

No they hire who they feel is the best man for the job. As any employer should have the right to do. 

I think you're arguing against something nobody has even asked for. 

But directly to the scenario you raised, actually yes, I am aware of one team that did pretty much exactly that: the Miami Dolphins, when they declined to hire Mike Tomlin.

I think what they actually said is 'he was the best interview, but we think hes too hip hop'. Which is some transparent shit.

[Herc]

Jesus they said that outloud?

[jranieli]

1 hour ago, CrazedDogs said:

I think you're arguing against something nobody has even asked for. 

But directly to the scenario you raised, actually yes, I am aware of one team that did pretty much exactly that: the Miami Dolphins, when they declined to hire Mike Tomlin.

I think what they actually said is 'he was the best interview, but we think hes too hip hop'. Which is some transparent shit.

I would have thought he was to much Omar Epps

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

9 hours ago, CrazedDogs said:

I think you're arguing against something nobody has even asked for. 

But directly to the scenario you raised, actually yes, I am aware of one team that did pretty much exactly that: the Miami Dolphins, when they declined to hire Mike Tomlin.

I think what they actually said is 'he was the best interview, but we think hes too hip hop'. Which is some transparent shit.

 

9 hours ago, Herc said:

Jesus they said that outloud?

 

8 hours ago, jranieli said:

I would have thought he was to much Omar Epps

Too real right... so funny men.  I guess he had too much skip in his step...

[JayD]

15 hours ago, CrazedDogs said:

I think you're arguing against something nobody has even asked for. 

But directly to the scenario you raised, actually yes, I am aware of one team that did pretty much exactly that: the Miami Dolphins, when they declined to hire Mike Tomlin.

I think what they actually said is 'he was the best interview, but we think hes too hip hop'. Which is some transparent shit.

Wow if they said that, that’s messed up. But didn’t they just hire their second black head coach in a row? 

[gmenroc]

You can look at the education aspect of it too.

There is a substantial difference in remembering plays, running a proper route, catching a ball, blocking here or there...and designing an offense, organizing team activities, assisting or being fully in charge of personnel, etc.

50 years ago, players were held to a different educational standard.  The social platform for an individual player was almost non-existent compared to today.  As such, the players weren't put on the pedestal they are now and beyond that, they weren't kept eligible by extra tutors, grading on curve, given oral exam in lieu of written and so on.  Just listen to how many of them attempt to complete a sentence in interviews anymore.  It's abysmal to consider they often actually have a degree with their name in it.  Name, image, likeness isn't a bad thing, but it's only going to exacerbate the lack of education.

This speaks to the failure of the recent athlete to transition into coaching.  As I said, coaching is a different skill set.  Should a player take their education seriously, or should they focus their studies on coaching, motivation, pyschology, etc., then you might see the tides change a bit.  Until then, expect old white guys who were marginal players at one time but hit the books hard.

Might be painting a bit with a wide brush, but I think that's a huge part of the problem.

[GorillaNJ]

Darius Butler was talking about this on the Pat Macafe show, one of the things he pointed out that makes it tough for ex-players to become coaches is the culture of coaching.   The rookie and first couple year coaches make not a lot of money and work crazy amounts of hours, they are basically set up as bitch boys as they "earn their stripes"   So if a guy like him plays for 9 seasons and he is competing for a job with a guy who has been coaching already for 9 seasons the player is at a disadvantage.   Plus a player who has been making a fortune each season is really going to want to coach to take a substantial pay cut and have to put in the hours.

[CrazedDogs]

25 minutes ago, gmenroc said:

You can look at the education aspect of it too.

There is a substantial difference in remembering plays, running a proper route, catching a ball, blocking here or there...and designing an offense, organizing team activities, assisting or being fully in charge of personnel, etc.

50 years ago, players were held to a different educational standard.  The social platform for an individual player was almost non-existent compared to today.  As such, the players weren't put on the pedestal they are now and beyond that, they weren't kept eligible by extra tutors, grading on curve, given oral exam in lieu of written and so on.  Just listen to how many of them attempt to complete a sentence in interviews anymore.  It's abysmal to consider they often actually have a degree with their name in it.  Name, image, likeness isn't a bad thing, but it's only going to exacerbate the lack of education.

This speaks to the failure of the recent athlete to transition into coaching.  As I said, coaching is a different skill set.  Should a player take their education seriously, or should they focus their studies on coaching, motivation, pyschology, etc., then you might see the tides change a bit.  Until then, expect old white guys who were marginal players at one time but hit the books hard.

Might be painting a bit with a wide brush, but I think that's a huge part of the problem.

I think you're a little backwards on that. Back in the day, there were a good number of NFL players that would sign their contracts in crayon (metaphorically speaking). The game is so much more complex now that the special eddies are the exception rather than the rule.

Speech patterns aren't a good proxy for intellect. A lot of what probably seems 'stupid' to you is probably just dialect.

Edit to add, I realized after the fact that this is probably in part the point you were trying to make - that the ability to communicate with ownership in the way that ownership expects is an obstacle. There's some merit to that. You know, you don't just roll out of bed knowing how to talk to the CEO. I know how to talk to the CEO because my dad knew how to talk to the CEO, and I grew up hearing that in the background of my life.

[Nas]

2 hours ago, JayD said:

Wow if they said that, that’s messed up. But didn’t they just hire their second black head coach in a row? 

Probably to cover their prior fuck ups.

[Nas]

44 minutes ago, gmenroc said:

You can look at the education aspect of it too.

There is a substantial difference in remembering plays, running a proper route, catching a ball, blocking here or there...and designing an offense, organizing team activities, assisting or being fully in charge of personnel, etc.

50 years ago, players were held to a different educational standard.  The social platform for an individual player was almost non-existent compared to today.  As such, the players weren't put on the pedestal they are now and beyond that, they weren't kept eligible by extra tutors, grading on curve, given oral exam in lieu of written and so on.  Just listen to how many of them attempt to complete a sentence in interviews anymore.  It's abysmal to consider they often actually have a degree with their name in it.  Name, image, likeness isn't a bad thing, but it's only going to exacerbate the lack of education.

This speaks to the failure of the recent athlete to transition into coaching.  As I said, coaching is a different skill set.  Should a player take their education seriously, or should they focus their studies on coaching, motivation, pyschology, etc., then you might see the tides change a bit.  Until then, expect old white guys who were marginal players at one time but hit the books hard.

Might be painting a bit with a wide brush, but I think that's a huge part of the problem.

Valid point but not everyone is dumber than a box of rocks.   There have plenty of intelligent and educated players also.