The Official Judge Has Gotta Go Thread

[CrazedDogs]

1 hour ago, Pdouble said:

ESPN NFL analysts absolutely crush Giants’ Joe Judge for ‘the stupidest thing ever’

https://www.nj.com/giants/2021/10/espn-nfl-analysts-absolutely-crush-giants-joe-judge-for-the-stupidest-thing-ever.html

 

Orlovsky's Timmy Tough Nut line was gold.  

But frankly nothing the Giants did is quite as stupid as everything this guys said with respect to Jones' possible concussion the prior week. Those guys were going on about 'oh, he had a serious concussion!' - based on what? Are any of them doctors? Were any of them even in the room for the medical evaluation? Not even any super secret medical record disclosing source? I'm guessing not. 

Wasn't but a few days before that I was watching some other former player round table where they guys were all like, man if Jones is medically cleared and Judge holds him out, that team will turn on Judge. At least in that case, those guys were not operating with the benefit of hindsight or a chronic case of Giants envy (in that respect, Rex Ryan is a fucking clown). 

The irony of us piling on Judge's comment about the process being more important than results is, you don't have to massage that line too hard for it to be a true, wise statement. You show me a purely results based approach, I'll show you a team that is celebrating when their broken clock actually displays the correct time. 'Results! we knew it!'. Sometimes, you can get the right answer, the right results, for the wrong reasons. 

[Mr. P]

8 minutes ago, CrazedDogs said:

Orlovsky's Timmy Tough Nut line was gold.  

But frankly nothing the Giants did is quite as stupid as everything this guys said with respect to Jones' possible concussion the prior week. Those guys were going on about 'oh, he had a serious concussion!' - based on what? Are any of them doctors? Were any of them even in the room for the medical evaluation? Not even any super secret medical record disclosing source? I'm guessing not. 

Wasn't but a few days before that I was watching some other former player round table where they guys were all like, man if Jones is medically cleared and Judge holds him out, that team will turn on Judge. At least in that case, those guys were not operating with the benefit of hindsight or a chronic case of Giants envy (in that respect, Rex Ryan is a fucking clown). 

The irony of us piling on Judge's comment about the process being more important than results is, you don't have to massage that line too hard for it to be a true, wise statement. You show me a purely results based approach, I'll show you a team that is celebrating when their broken clock actually displays the correct time. 'Results! we knew it!'. Sometimes, you can get the right answer, the right results, for the wrong reasons. 

 

Yeah but come on, it’s way past time we should be seeing some results by now. 

[Nas]

16 minutes ago, CrazedDogs said:

Orlovsky's Timmy Tough Nut line was gold.  

But frankly nothing the Giants did is quite as stupid as everything this guys said with respect to Jones' possible concussion the prior week. Those guys were going on about 'oh, he had a serious concussion!' - based on what? Are any of them doctors? Were any of them even in the room for the medical evaluation? Not even any super secret medical record disclosing source? I'm guessing not. 

Wasn't but a few days before that I was watching some other former player round table where they guys were all like, man if Jones is medically cleared and Judge holds him out, that team will turn on Judge. At least in that case, those guys were not operating with the benefit of hindsight or a chronic case of Giants envy (in that respect, Rex Ryan is a fucking clown). 

The irony of us piling on Judge's comment about the process being more important than results is, you don't have to massage that line too hard for it to be a true, wise statement. You show me a purely results based approach, I'll show you a team that is celebrating when their broken clock actually displays the correct time. 'Results! we knew it!'. Sometimes, you can get the right answer, the right results, for the wrong reasons. 

CD, you're golden man... Spot on.  

[Mr. P]

[BlueInCanada]

2 hours ago, CrazedDogs said:

Orlovsky's Timmy Tough Nut line was gold.  

But frankly nothing the Giants did is quite as stupid as everything this guys said with respect to Jones' possible concussion the prior week. Those guys were going on about 'oh, he had a serious concussion!' - based on what? Are any of them doctors? Were any of them even in the room for the medical evaluation? Not even any super secret medical record disclosing source? I'm guessing not. 

Wasn't but a few days before that I was watching some other former player round table where they guys were all like, man if Jones is medically cleared and Judge holds him out, that team will turn on Judge. At least in that case, those guys were not operating with the benefit of hindsight or a chronic case of Giants envy (in that respect, Rex Ryan is a fucking clown). 

The irony of us piling on Judge's comment about the process being more important than results is, you don't have to massage that line too hard for it to be a true, wise statement. You show me a purely results based approach, I'll show you a team that is celebrating when their broken clock actually displays the correct time. 'Results! we knew it!'. Sometimes, you can get the right answer, the right results, for the wrong reasons. 

It's a result driven league.

Show me a team that cares more about the process than winning/results and I'll show you a team that has never completed for anything.

You can't live in a world where you hold on to the idea that you stick with a failing process or product because you simply like the broken process.

If an employee doesn't pick a job up after a couple years you don't reward them because they have a good process of going about it. 

You let them go.

So far Judge and Gettys process isn't working. 

Getty is a clear cut example or someone who simply can't get the job done and has failed at all levels to do so after multiple years.

Judge so far has shown that as well and he may or may not get a chance to redeem himself depending on the new GM.

However you don't hold the new GM hostage saying "We want you to hold onto this coach because we like his process" it's never worked in the NFL and you'll never get a GM worth a damn here with that mindset. 

[BlueInCanada]

On 10/20/2021 at 7:40 AM, CrazedDogs said:

well.... you show me a team with starters that can't move the ball against another team's back ups, I'll show you a team that needs reps.

unfortunately wherever we come down on whether it made sense to keep Jones in the game, it seems we're all boiling this down to the same conclusion - Jones isn't going to be here for the long term.

on the bright side, lets give some props to Will Hernandez for being the team's best, most consistent offensive lineman in 2021! Way to go big Will!

 

Reps aren't going to fix the problem the core of this team is built on.

Sure an injured player who's been out for a few months, reps will help, a new system in place that players need practice with, reps will help, a rookie player, reps will help.

A coach leaving his starters in to play against back ups, in a blowout loss in week six, won't help what's wrong with this team. 

Its not like this is 2007 when we played NE the final week of the year and we took them to the final whistle showing this team we can run with the big boys and belong in the NFL.

[CrazedDogs]

1 hour ago, BlueInCanada said:

 

Reps aren't going to fix the problem the core of this team is built on.

Sure an injured player who's been out for a few months, reps will help, a new system in place that players need practice with, reps will help, a rookie player, reps will help.

A coach leaving his starters in to play against back ups, in a blowout loss in week six, won't help what's wrong with this team. 

Its not like this is 2007 when we played NE the final week of the year and we took them to the final whistle showing this team we can run with the big boys and belong in the NFL.

I'm surprised you keep doubling down on this let's-not-even-bother-to-compete-because-we-suck-and-it-might-hurt-our-feelings thing. High achieving people do not operate under the assumption of failure. 

[CrazedDogs]

1 hour ago, BlueInCanada said:

It's a result driven league.

Show me a team that cares more about the process than winning/results and I'll show you a team that has never completed for anything.

You can't live in a world where you hold on to the idea that you stick with a failing process or product because you simply like the broken process.

If an employee doesn't pick a job up after a couple years you don't reward them because they have a good process of going about it. 

You let them go.

So far Judge and Gettys process isn't working. 

Getty is a clear cut example or someone who simply can't get the job done and has failed at all levels to do so after multiple years.

Judge so far has shown that as well and he may or may not get a chance to redeem himself depending on the new GM.

However you don't hold the new GM hostage saying "We want you to hold onto this coach because we like his process" it's never worked in the NFL and you'll never get a GM worth a damn here with that mindset. 

well sure, results are what matters over the long haul... And the way you get results over the long haul is with a rigorous process. 

we should flip this around the other way - you're saying that the team is overvaluing process at the expense of results, so what about their process do you think they could change that would have resulted in better results so far this season? 

[Sephiroth]

Results are more important than the process. 

Like I said in another thread... is anyone mad at David Tyree's shit week of practice before the Super Bowl? 

[Mr. P]

 

[gmenroc]

1 hour ago, Pdouble said:

 

Folks don't want to play when there is no hope to win.  Sounds like they're all accepting that the season is over after 6 weeks.

[Mr. P]

19 minutes ago, gmenroc said:

Folks don't want to play when there is no hope to win.  Sounds like they're all accepting that the season is over after 6 weeks.

 

another tell-tale sign of bad coaching. 

[gmenroc]

1 hour ago, Pdouble said:

 

another tell-tale sign of bad coaching. 

I don't disagree, but I think some of that is born naturally out of futility.

Win, and players will play with this or that.  Lose, and they're staying out of the game.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

On 10/19/2021 at 2:03 PM, BlueInCanada said:

 

But John ain't Giants family man... 

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

On 10/20/2021 at 12:21 PM, GorillaNJ said:

Once he was cleared through the concussion protocol he should be playing.   Especially since it is an independent doctor who has to clear him...    I wish that Dr did not clear him

 

On 10/20/2021 at 12:28 PM, gmenroc said:

I understand the process, but if I was Judge,I would've sat him based on lack of practice time, even though personally, it was to give his brain an extra week to recover.

At most, I'd have had him dress, but in backup role to Glennon only to go in game in case of injury to Glennon.

This... what can it hurt and to what will it gain.  It can get hurt a lot (he gets fucked up) versus him gaining very little such as winning a game in a very badly losing season.  Not enough gain in their for me.  Hey I am not fighting to keep my head coaching job.  Judge reminds me of British generals in WWI.  Send wave after wave of young men to their deaths against German machine guns and artillery while collecting your Victoria Crosses from the King/Queen back home.  

[BronxRik]

So does Judge still gotta go?

Have the holes in the sub been patched?

Are we gonna be alright?

[Sephiroth]

Yes, Judge still has to go and so does Gettleman, unless 2-5 gets you into the playoffs somehow.

[Tempest]

Joe Judge just beat the other guy the Giants wanted to hire.  They both have roughly the same professional record so far.

[CrazedDogs]

Judge gets one more week.

[Mr. P]

 

[Nas]

On 10/24/2021 at 7:29 PM, CrazedDogs said:

Judge gets one more week.

Judge deserves this entire season.   Unless this team completely implodes of course.   The man (any  man really) deserves a fair shot at success.    I'd rather be guilty of waiting too long and the pulling the trigger too soon.    Besides how many people are great on the job in their first year... in a position they never held before?    Has he made mistakes?  Sure... but who doesn't?     

[Mr. P]

A coach shouldn’t get worse in their second year. 

[Tempest]

3 hours ago, Pdouble said:

A coach shouldn’t get worse in their second year. 

Yeah a coach should not get worse than his first year.  He shouldn't lose the trust of the team he coaches, the GM or ownership.

I think about McAdoo and his second year.  It wasn't just the losses but he also lost the team.  Then he lost ownership and he may have lost Reese, who knows.  Judge hasn't lost the team.

Judge still has the team, the GM and ownership firmly behind him with a 2-5 record.  There are plenty of games left to be played this season.

[Mr. P]

23 minutes ago, Tempest said:

Yeah a coach should not get worse than his first year.  He shouldn't lose the trust of the team he coaches, the GM or ownership.

I think about McAdoo and his second year.  It wasn't just the losses but he also lost the team.  Then he lost ownership and he may have lost Reese, who knows.  Judge hasn't lost the team.

Judge still has the team, the GM and ownership firmly behind him with a 2-5 record.  There are plenty of games left to be played this season.

 

I hope you’re right. 

[BlueInCanada]

1 hour ago, Tempest said:

Yeah a coach should not get worse than his first year.  He shouldn't lose the trust of the team he coaches, the GM or ownership.

I think about McAdoo and his second year.  It wasn't just the losses but he also lost the team.  Then he lost ownership and he may have lost Reese, who knows.  Judge hasn't lost the team.

Judge still has the team, the GM and ownership firmly behind him with a 2-5 record.  There are plenty of games left to be played this season.

The problem is, this can easily turn into a Marvin Lewis scenario.

Years of mediocrity and losing records simply because ownership believes they "have their man"

Also what I worry about is if/when DG gets fired, does ownership force the new GM to keep Judge? Do they let Judge go out and pick the next GM?

Either way it's not a great position to be in, coaches hiring their own GM has never worked out, and I don't think any successful team has forced the GM to keep the HC outside of maybe Bill in NE.