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Daniel Jones


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It's hard because he's never had a cast around him consistently to judge him as a franchise guy. 

Now your franchise QB should be able to elevate those around him but still there's 10 other guys on the field and you can't be the only one out there worth a damn.

Eli was the best QB the franchise has seen but you take guys like Plax, Nicks, that Oline, and many other guys we can name away and Eli is still Eli but he doesn't have his SB rings.

I think I've read that this year Jones, Barkley, Shepard, Toney, Golladay have only been on the field together for 21 plays. 

That's it, the rest of the time someone has been hurt. 

I feel like Jones can be the QB, he's done a lot right, and is a ruthless competitor and athlete but he's a liability of getting hurt and missing one or more games a year, and so far he just hasn't had that consistent play from week to week.

Whoever the new GM is and maybe even HC are going to have to do their homework on if they are willing to pay to keep Jones or go elsewhere after next year. 

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On 10/28/2021 at 7:46 PM, BlueInCanada said:

It's hard because he's never had a cast around him consistently to judge him as a franchise guy. 

Now your franchise QB should be able to elevate those around him but still there's 10 other guys on the field and you can't be the only one out there worth a damn.

Eli was the best QB the franchise has seen but you take guys like Plax, Nicks, that Oline, and many other guys we can name away and Eli is still Eli but he doesn't have his SB rings.

I think I've read that this year Jones, Barkley, Shepard, Toney, Golladay have only been on the field together for 21 plays. 

That's it, the rest of the time someone has been hurt. 

I feel like Jones can be the QB, he's done a lot right, and is a ruthless competitor and athlete but he's a liability of getting hurt and missing one or more games a year, and so far he just hasn't had that consistent play from week to week.

Whoever the new GM is and maybe even HC are going to have to do their homework on if they are willing to pay to keep Jones or go elsewhere after next year. 

Jones reminds me of a Simms that can run....

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  • 3 weeks later...

Bob Papa had a short interview written up in the NY Post which was nice.  He said that Daniel Jones in comparison to Eli Manning had a better first season and is playing with far less of a team.  Needs to show consistency and will get better.  Monday night would be a great time to showcase that improvement.

:giants:

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12 hours ago, Tempest said:

Bob Papa had a short interview written up in the NY Post which was nice.  He said that Daniel Jones in comparison to Eli Manning had a better first season and is playing with far less of a team.  Needs to show consistency and will get better.  Monday night would be a great time to showcase that improvement.

:giants:

This is spot on.  

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Eli had one of the best O-lines we ever seen in Giants history after his first year,so he has that advantage.

However he also elevated the play of those around him later in his career and during the SB runs. 

I don't need to see Jones out there like Rodgers or Mahomes. 

Just give me Eli-like level of play being able to make the throws when it matters, make your play makers better, and not getting knocked out of games a coupe times a year. That's what any franchise QB has to do.

Those are things you can't teach, you can't coach toughness or mental fortitude.

So far Jones has the mental part right, he's had some good throws when the game is on the line (just needs to do it more consistently), he just needs to prove the rest to me anyways. Can he make this team better around him and can he stay healthy for 17 games a year.

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13 hours ago, Tempest said:

Bob Papa had a short interview written up in the NY Post which was nice.  He said that Daniel Jones in comparison to Eli Manning had a better first season and is playing with far less of a team.  Needs to show consistency and will get better.  Monday night would be a great time to showcase that improvement.

:giants:

probably true on the latter point, it is a lesser team than for the entire first half of Eli's tenure.

But a 'better first season' is difficult to ascertain. Eli was playing in a Gilbride+++ offense that first season, it was an extremely complicated offense (I don't think John Hufnagle has worked in the NFL again), and they deliberately threw it all at Eli to see what he could absorb. It was a nightmare scenario for a rookie QB.

Could Jones have performed as well in a similar offense? Jones does a lot of things well, but on field anticipation is not one of them. Could you imagine Jones trying to run that style offense, predicated on the QB anticipating the receiver's route choice against a given defense, often with multiple options for a single receiver? It would have been one of the most hilariously awful rookie seasons in history. 

Instead Jones got to work with Shurmur training wheels. Its an apples to hand grenades comparison. 

 

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I think he's done. Had all his weapons and still a lackluster game tonight.

What's worse? The Giants will reach for another QB in a draft where 2 weeks ago everyone agreed there were no 1st round QB's. Now, just this weekend, all of a sudden there are 3 RD1 QB's. It'll be another 3-4 years before they really find the next franchise QB. In the meantime they'll reach, and reach desperately. 

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I think the Giants give Jones year 4 to see whats really up, upgrade the OL and ONLY the OL mainly, Judge and co get a pass for another year too - just too many fucking injuries to make a fair assessment. And after that, if we are still picking in the top 10 - well - obviously going QB is the answer.

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18 minutes ago, mastershake said:

I've seen enough from DJ. Yes, he's never had a competent OL around him, and Garrett is putrid, but he's not the guy.

I do not think I have seen enough of him to replace him with just any schmuck QB...   if you tell me that they bring in Aaron Rodgers and have Jones move to the bench for 2 years or ever. 

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20 minutes ago, GorillaNJ said:

I do not think I have seen enough of him to replace him with just any schmuck QB...   if you tell me that they bring in Aaron Rodgers and have Jones move to the bench for 2 years or ever. 

I don't know who the replacement is. I just don't think DJ is the answer.

Generally if a QB hasn't figured it out by year 3 of starting, then they're never going to. The rare exceptions are like Rich Gannon, but for every Gannon, there's 20 guys who just flame out.

Also he's not a complete disaster, but he's a bottom third QB in this league.

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3 minutes ago, mastershake said:

I don't know who the replacement is. I just don't think DJ is the answer.

Generally if a QB hasn't figured it out by year 3 of starting, then they're never going to. The rare exceptions are like Rich Gannon, but for every Gannon, there's 20 guys who just flame out.

Also he's not a complete disaster, but he's a bottom third QB in this league.

and Gannon had mitigating circumstances.... he was a QB and safety in college at FCS level football, played for the Tubby Raymond Blue Hens. In those days they were still running their legendary wing-T offense. Great system for Pop Warner, high school, and low level college.... but not really a training ground for future NFL QBs. Gannon was actually drafted to play defense.

I don't think its for every one Rich Gannon there are twenty other guys.... its more like there's one Rich Gannon, now close the book, because we aren't going to see that career arc happen ever again.

 

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Just now, CrazedDogs said:

and Gannon had mitigating circumstances.... he was a QB and safety in college at FCS level football, played for the Tubby Raymond Blue Hens. In those days they were still running their legendary wing-T offense. Great system for Pop Warner, high school, and low level college.... but not really a training ground for future NFL QBs. Gannon was actually drafted to play defense.

I don't think its for every one Rich Gannon there are twenty other guys.... its more like there's one Rich Gannon, now close the book, because we aren't going to see that career arc happen ever again.

 

True. Good point.

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34 minutes ago, GorillaNJ said:

I do not think I have seen enough of him to replace him with just any schmuck QB...   if you tell me that they bring in Aaron Rodgers and have Jones move to the bench for 2 years or ever. 

I'm not saying we need to replace him outright let him run on his fourth year but the Giants and whoever the new GM is need to start a plan B.

Maybe a second round pick who can sit in the bench next year learning, or bring in someone in free agency who can start if need be.

At first I thought Jones's floor was someone like Trubinsky now I'm thinking that's his ceiling.

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Too many years behind a bad o-line.  He’s completely shot mentally.  I get anxious just watching his body language when the ball is snapped.  He basically curled up in the fetal position on that 4th and 2 when he couldn’t hand id off 

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10 hours ago, BronxRik said:

I think he's done. Had all his weapons and still a lackluster game tonight.

What's worse? The Giants will reach for another QB in a draft where 2 weeks ago everyone agreed there were no 1st round QB's. Now, just this weekend, all of a sudden there are 3 RD1 QB's. It'll be another 3-4 years before they really find the next franchise QB. In the meantime they'll reach, and reach desperately. 

 

10 hours ago, Herc said:

Trade both picks for Wilson.  He can play behind garbage o-lines 

Oh God no... who said we have to get a QB in the 1st?   You can have the best QB in the world but without having an OL, you're not going to succeed.    

 

Wilson doesn't have a lot of years left... I'd rather use the 2 1st rounders on a the best OL and the best DL (remember when we used to sack QBs?)     

 

While I'm not sold on DJ, he's probably the best we have over the next few years until we fix the rest of the team anyway... I get he had an awful fucking game... so bad that I started having flashes of Dave Brown... but I'll file it as one horrible fucking game... and keep my eye on fixing the OL/DL. 

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41 minutes ago, mastershake said:

I don't know who the replacement is. I just don't think DJ is the answer.

Generally if a QB hasn't figured it out by year 3 of starting, then they're never going to. The rare exceptions are like Rich Gannon, but for every Gannon, there's 20 guys who just flame out.

Also he's not a complete disaster, but he's a bottom third QB in this league.

HOF QBs that "sucked" their first three years in NFL.

Fran Tarkenton - Shitty Minnie and Giants teams first 7 seasons
Len Dawson - Shitty Pitt, Cle, Dallas  and Chief teams first 6 seasons
Terry Bradshaw - Pretty shitty but developing (loaded)  Pitt Teams first 4 seasons
Bob Griese - Pretty shitty but developing (loaded) MIA teams for 3 years.
Warren Moon - Outlier.
Troy Aikman - See Bradshaw see Greise
Kurt Warner - Outlier.

Not saying Jones is even an All Pro....or Pro Bowler....or even a middle of the pack QB at this point....I don't think we know what we have... other than a garbage..and I mean a Practice Squad level O line that never gives him a clean pocket.....and a OC that has ADD...as in no vision whatsoever regarding this offenses identity is ...

Put Mahomes....Murray....Burrow.....behind the lines DJ has played with the last three years.......and have them toss to ball to receiving corp that can't stay on the field for more than two games in a row...and arent really any good when they do other than Sheppard and to a lesser extent Toney (dude runs backwards a lot for a slot guy)..with a defense that makes it point that you have are always playing from behind a minimum of two scores......which makes your bad offense ...a predictable offense....dimensional.....and I bet we the same record within a game or two that we have had the last three years. 

I mean shit....some games...this kid is the only thing worth watching when the Gman play. They are that goddamn bad.

Lets also remember....Simms "sucked' his first four or five years too...until the Giants got something resembling a team. around him......which...is not what we saw last night.

C. Wagon

 

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16 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said:

HOF QBs that "sucked" their first three years in NFL.

Fran Tarkenton - Shitty Minnie and Giants teams first 7 seasons
Len Dawson - Shitty Pitt, Cle, Dallas  and Chief teams first 6 seasons
Terry Bradshaw - Pretty shitty but developing (loaded)  Pitt Teams first 4 seasons
Bob Griese - Pretty shitty but developing (loaded) MIA teams for 3 years.
Warren Moon - Outlier.
Troy Aikman - See Bradshaw see Greise
Kurt Warner - Outlier.

Not saying Jones is even an All Pro....or Pro Bowler....or even a middle of the pack QB at this point....I don't think we know what we have... other than a garbage..and I mean a Practice Squad level O line that never gives him a clean pocket.....and a OC that has ADD...as in no vision whatsoever regarding this offenses identity is ...

Put Mahomes....Murray....Burrow.....behind the lines DJ has played with the last three years.......and have them toss to ball to receiving corp that can't stay on the field for more than two games in a row...and arent really any good when they do other than Sheppard and to a lesser extent Toney (dude runs backwards a lot for a slot guy)..with a defense that makes it point that you have are always playing from behind a minimum of two scores......which makes your bad offense ...a predictable offense....dimensional.....and I bet we the same record within a game or two that we have had the last three years. 

I mean shit....some games...this kid is the only thing worth watching when the Gman play. They are that goddamn bad.

Lets also remember....Simms "sucked' his first four or five years too...until the Giants got something resembling a team. around him......which...is not what we saw last night.

C. Wagon

 

On the first four, you're dipping way far back in time. 

Aikman was good by year 3 (was a pro bowler that year), but to your point sucked in his first two years.

Kurt Warner was good by year 1 (year 1 of him starting).

Warren Moon, yes you're correct.

I think the point is, these types of QB's who take until year 4 or beyond to develop don't happen often. They're the rare exception. If you stack these guys up against all the QBs who didn't develop, it's gotta be like less than 5%.

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1 minute ago, mastershake said:

On the first four, you're dipping way far back in time. 

Aikman was good by year 3 (was a pro bowler that year), but to your point sucked in his first two years.

Kurt Warner was good by year 1 (year 1 of him starting).

Warren Moon, yes you're correct.

I think the point is, these types of QB's who take until year 4 or beyond to develop don't happen often. They're the rare exception. If you stack these guys up against all the QBs who didn't develop, it's gotta be like less than 5%.

The point is....all of those QBs only started getting traction when they had teams that grew with them...or after a being in and out of the league...hit the right team (Warner / Rams).

The Giants are straight up putrid.....rudderless...and I just don't see a plan. Shit...I don't seem outline of a plan.

If there is no plan...I am hard pressed to put it on 8...trying to execute a non plan..with a makeshift team every week. 

The more I think about it....I think the kid is probably done.

In his make or break 4th season...he will be involved in a complete rebuild ...and looking at another 3 years to get to where they should be now.

Its amazing to me that they suck this hard....simply amazing to me.

C. Wagon

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