Giants, Williams nowhere near a deal

[mastershake]

https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2021/02/25/new-york-giants-leonard-williams-arent-close-on-new-deal/?fbclid=IwAR2e5W_EWGU6r4LhVAi0mogl-7dXj5Ui738T0YhzNVUfdnGhvM6NwwJH7BA

 

Duggan adds that despite earlier speculation, Williams will not offer the Giants a hometown discount and would instead prefer to be paid in the range of $20 million to $21 million per season — on par with the likes of DeForest Buckner and Chris Jones.

[CrazedDogs]

Haha, remember when we thought he wouldn't get anywhere close to $15 million?

 

[BlueInCanada]

He deserves it.

Just means we will be able to get some more Oline help and Tomlinson probably.

Which isnt bad I've read a few articles saying Tomlinson is the better player for Graham system, but Williams being the better edge guy obviously.

I'll see if I can dig it up. 

[mastershake]

Rather than re-sign Tomlinson at a $12-14mm per year contract for a guy who only plays 67% of the downs, I'd honestly rather invest in the OL and rely on Lawrence and BJ Hill as our starting DTs, re-sign a guy like Austin Johnson for depth plus add a mid-late round draft pick for the 4th DT position depth.

In other words, instead spend the cap space on G Joe Thuney 4 years $60mm, and bring in a guy like Kevin Beachum on a 1yr $4mm deal to be a swing tackle/backup plan at RT in case Peart doesn't work out this year.

Draft another interior OL in rounds 1-3.

[CrazedDogs]

Oh I am torn on that. Tomlinson is a very, very underrated player. And I think he is the kind of person who will continue improving despite getting the big contract.

 

[BlueInCanada]

1 hour ago, CrazedDogs said:

Oh I am torn on that. Tomlinson is a very, very underrated player. And I think he is the kind of person who will continue improving despite getting the big contract.

 

Tomlinson isnt in for that big of a contract, most sites have him around the 9 to 11 million a year mark which is nothing compared to Williams projected numbers of 20+ million a year.

Letting Williams go will also allow the Giants to sign Tomlinson and Oline help without crippling two position groups. Tomlinson and even two FAs like Easton and Linsey for what they would of normally paid Williams.

Tomlinson 10 million, Linsey 10 million, Easton 6 million, three starting caliber players for 26 million, instead of Williams for 20+. Linsey would also be able to start at center and we can kick Gates to guard.

They could even go out and sign Oday Aboushi from Detriot for peanuts if they feel like Easton is to expensive who had a hell of a low key year for the Lions.

Oline of Thomas, Easton/Aboshi, Gates, Linsey, my best guess is they select Cosmi or Einchenerg in round two as starting RT) This allows Lemieoux and Peart to be the rotational back ups, Solder possibly as well.

The Dline consisting of Hill, Tomlinson, Lawrence, first round DE maybe?

All for around 26-27 million.

I'd take it.

Wont happen though lol

[mastershake]

11 minutes ago, BlueInCanada said:

Tomlinson isnt in for that big of a contract, most sites have him around the 9 to 11 million a year mark which is nothing compared to Williams projected numbers of 20+ million a year.

Letting Williams go will also allow the Giants to sign Tomlinson and Oline help without crippling two position groups. Tomlinson and even two FAs like Easton and Linsey for what they would of normally paid Williams.

Tomlinson 10 million, Linsey 10 million, Easton 6 million, three starting caliber players for 26 million, instead of Williams for 20+. Linsey would also be able to start at center and we can kick Gates to guard.

They could even go out and sign Oday Aboushi from Detriot for peanuts if they feel like Easton is to expensive who had a hell of a low key year for the Lions.

Oline of Thomas, Easton/Aboshi, Gates, Linsey, my best guess is they select Cosmi or Einchenerg in round two as starting RT) This allows Lemieoux and Peart to be the rotational back ups, Solder possibly as well.

The Dline consisting of Hill, Tomlinson, Lawrence, first round DE maybe?

All for around 26-27 million.

I'd take it.

Wont happen though lol

NJ.com estimated Tomlinson signing a 3 year $40mm, which seemed a bit generous in my view. I bet he gets 3 years $36mm or 4 years $48mm

[BlueInCanada]

9 minutes ago, mastershake said:

NJ.com estimated Tomlinson signing a 3 year $40mm, which seemed a bit generous in my view. I bet he gets 3 years $36mm or 4 years $48mm

Overthecap has him in the 9.5 million a year range.

Spottrac at 11.4.

He'll be somewhere between the two.

I think he's said he's willing to give the Giants a "home town" discount as well which doesn't mean much but maybe he wants to stay with Graham, unlike Williams who has never really commented on his situation in NY.

Even so, he cost one or two million more, I'd much rather have Tomlinson and two starting caliber OL for the 24-28 million, than Williams lol

The NFLPA has come out and said to play hardball with teams this year, just because the cap went down doesnt mean to settle for less.

Which wont do well for the Giants, since this team is already a hard enough sell to players I would imagine in an offseason where players want to go and play for contenders.

[Tempest]

I recall hearing Williams talk about how this wasn't about the money, he has already made plenty of money but about respect.  

"I think for me, I'm not the type of person that likes to bounce around a lot," Williams told ESPN. "I like to be stationary and comfortable on the team, and also like to win. I'd like to be able to stay on this team and hopefully be a part of the rebuilding process to get this team back to a winning program again.

"I don't think the money matters as much for me. Obviously, I want to get paid, as every player wants to. This is a business now. You clearly want to get paid for your play, but at the same time, I don't think that is the most important thing for me."

https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-giants/post/_/id/59985/keeping-leonard-williams-with-giants-not-all-about-the-money

[BlueInCanada]

2 minutes ago, Tempest said:

I recall hearing Williams talk about how this wasn't about the money, he has already made plenty of money but about respect.  

"I think for me, I'm not the type of person that likes to bounce around a lot," Williams told ESPN. "I like to be stationary and comfortable on the team, and also like to win. I'd like to be able to stay on this team and hopefully be a part of the rebuilding process to get this team back to a winning program again.

"I don't think the money matters as much for me. Obviously, I want to get paid, as every player wants to. This is a business now. You clearly want to get paid for your play, but at the same time, I don't think that is the most important thing for me."

https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-giants/post/_/id/59985/keeping-leonard-williams-with-giants-not-all-about-the-money

Well of course he said this in 2019 when he had a grand total of 0.5 sacks where his value was probably around 6 million lol

After 2020 his estimated value is 20+ million lol

[NeMesiS]

6 hours ago, BlueInCanada said:

Well of course he said this in 2019 when he had a grand total of 0.5 sacks where his value was probably around 6 million lol

After 2020 his estimated value is 20+ million lol

Personally... Williams was the MVP of the team last year. To me there’s no question. But I’m afraid he’s going to pull a Albert Haynesworth on us. 

[BlueInCanada]

4 hours ago, NeMesiS said:

Personally... Williams was the MVP of the team last year. To me there’s no question. But I’m afraid he’s going to pull a Albert Haynesworth on us. 

Oh I'm not saying he isnt worth his contract, he was one of the few performers of the team.

But when you're still a few pieces away you don't pay a guy over half of the cap space you have in one offseason, that could be used to get two/three starters at other positions.

Now if the Giants were one or two plays away from winning the NFC Championship game I would be banging on the table saying to keep Williams no matter what.

But that's the advantage good teams have, they already have a good team, they can add one or two peices.

We aint a good team lol

[UK-Giantsfan]

can we tag Williams and sign Tomlinson ?  i know that wont be cheap but we need to keep both of them IMO

[Sephiroth]

15 hours ago, CrazedDogs said:

Oh I am torn on that. Tomlinson is a very, very underrated player. And I think he is the kind of person who will continue improving despite getting the big contract.

 

I was having a "no screens" night last night and asked Alexa to play the NYG podcast... instead it played Ed Valentine's podcast, but he had Mike Tannenbaum on and it was very interesting.

Tannenbaum basically said that re-signing Tomlinson is super important for locker room culture, in a "if you play well and are a good person, look what we'll do for you." He said he totally didn't understand that when he cut Jericho Cotchery and the players hated him because of it... which bled over into other things as well. From that perspective he thought Tomlinson was a more important signing.

[mastershake]

In a perfect world, we'd have enough money to re-sign Williams, the MVP as Nem pointed out, plus Tomlinson, plus two starting OL (e.g. Linsley, Ryan).

But we don't. Williams at $20mm per year plus is clearly out of our range.

If we re-sign Tomlinson, that eats up ~$9-11mm in cap space and means we likely don't address the OL, and my fear is we're just back where we were last year with a solid defense but offense that's bottom tier because the OL (still) can't block.

I'm honestly so tired of talking about this offensive line. I mean, we aren't even fucking close...and we've been talking about it for going on like 7 years now, literally. We have Thomas who looks promising, Gates who is DECENT (but not spectacular like people are boasting about), and then the other three starting OL spots are currently tremendous unknowns (Zeitler I'm assuming will be cut). As BC has pointed out on another thread, DG sort of publicly indicates which way he's going to go/not going to go, and all indications are that he thinks the OL is fine as is and instead thinks we need skill players (which we do also need, but the offense doesn't work without an OL). DG is totally not going to fix the OL again. He honestly thinks Lemeuix, Hernandex, and Peart and/or Solder should be day 1 starters in 2021.

[Sephiroth]

2 hours ago, mastershake said:

In a perfect world, we'd have enough money to re-sign Williams, the MVP as Nem pointed out, plus Tomlinson, plus two starting OL (e.g. Linsley, Ryan).

But we don't. Williams at $20mm per year plus is clearly out of our range.

If we re-sign Tomlinson, that eats up ~$9-11mm in cap space and means we likely don't address the OL, and my fear is we're just back where we were last year with a solid defense but offense that's bottom tier because the OL (still) can't block.

I'm honestly so tired of talking about this offensive line. I mean, we aren't even fucking close...and we've been talking about it for going on like 7 years now, literally. We have Thomas who looks promising, Gates who is DECENT (but not spectacular like people are boasting about), and then the other three starting OL spots are currently tremendous unknowns (Zeitler I'm assuming will be cut). As BC has pointed out on another thread, DG sort of publicly indicates which way he's going to go/not going to go, and all indications are that he thinks the OL is fine as is and instead thinks we need skill players (which we do also need, but the offense doesn't work without an OL). DG is totally not going to fix the OL again. He honestly thinks Lemeuix, Hernandex, and Peart and/or Solder should be day 1 starters in 2021.

This is why I'm really warming up to the idea of Rashawn Slater at 11. Hernandez sucks? He's your LG. Peart doesn't work out? RT it is. Need to get rid of Zeitler? Slide him in there, or out him at Center and Gates back at Guard.

Dude even looks good at LT. While I really want a skill player in the first, I think a guy like Slater could really solve a lot of problems (or Vera-Tucker if he slides to the second).

About to start looking at Darrisaw too. His report reads great but the one game tape I watched (think it was vs Notre Dame) had his feet looking really slow.

[CrazedDogs]

2 hours ago, Sephiroth said:

I was having a "no screens" night last night and asked Alexa to play the NYG podcast... instead it played Ed Valentine's podcast, but he had Mike Tannenbaum on and it was very interesting.

Tannenbaum basically said that re-signing Tomlinson is super important for locker room culture, in a "if you play well and are a good person, look what we'll do for you." He said he totally didn't understand that when he cut Jericho Cotchery and the players hated him because of it... which bled over into other things as well. From that perspective he thought Tomlinson was a more important signing.

That perfectly explains my feelings on it. He's a good player. He's a good guy. And Williams is too, but if you had to wager on which guy will still be worth his contract two and three years in, I'm guessing we all wager on Tomlinson.

[CrazedDogs]

2 hours ago, mastershake said:

In a perfect world, we'd have enough money to re-sign Williams, the MVP as Nem pointed out, plus Tomlinson, plus two starting OL (e.g. Linsley, Ryan).

But we don't. Williams at $20mm per year plus is clearly out of our range.

If we re-sign Tomlinson, that eats up ~$9-11mm in cap space and means we likely don't address the OL, and my fear is we're just back where we were last year with a solid defense but offense that's bottom tier because the OL (still) can't block.

I'm honestly so tired of talking about this offensive line. I mean, we aren't even fucking close...and we've been talking about it for going on like 7 years now, literally. We have Thomas who looks promising, Gates who is DECENT (but not spectacular like people are boasting about), and then the other three starting OL spots are currently tremendous unknowns (Zeitler I'm assuming will be cut). As BC has pointed out on another thread, DG sort of publicly indicates which way he's going to go/not going to go, and all indications are that he thinks the OL is fine as is and instead thinks we need skill players (which we do also need, but the offense doesn't work without an OL). DG is totally not going to fix the OL again. He honestly thinks Lemeuix, Hernandex, and Peart and/or Solder should be day 1 starters in 2021.

I'm really into building the OL, but I think your estimation of this group is a little negative. Just a little.

It's a unit that needs work, but it isn't hopeless. There are questions across the line, but many of them could still be answers. Including Solder, including Hernandez. It's not like the days we had guys like Newhouse and Flowers starting.

[mastershake]

2 hours ago, CrazedDogs said:

I'm really into building the OL, but I think your estimation of this group is a little negative. Just a little.

It's a unit that needs work, but it isn't hopeless. There are questions across the line, but many of them could still be answers. Including Solder, including Hernandez. It's not like the days we had guys like Newhouse and Flowers starting.

If we sign Linsley and use a 2nd or 3rd rounder on an OL, I'd feel a lot better. Kevin Beachum on a 1 yr $3mm deal would be a plus as well.

I expect DG to make zero of these three moves or similar three moves. I actually expect no investment in the OL from DG, other than maybe late picks or backups for depth.

[BlueInCanada]

3 hours ago, CrazedDogs said:

I'm really into building the OL, but I think your estimation of this group is a little negative. Just a little.

It's a unit that needs work, but it isn't hopeless. There are questions across the line, but many of them could still be answers. Including Solder, including Hernandez. It's not like the days we had guys like Newhouse and Flowers starting.

I think Henandez is now a bench guy until he gets his shit figured out, if he ever does which doesnt look good at this point

Lemieux stepped into his job and looked better despite being a turnstyle in pass block. Which is why I'd like to get a guy like Easton or Linsey (preferably) to replace Zeitler and then try to work out the other guard spot. 

I have no problem with rolling into the season with Peart at RT, it's a strength position not a technique position and Peart should excel there. However as Shakes said it can't be the only option. Can we restructure Solder to be the back up RT? Do we bring in vet? Resign Flemming? 

Right now guard is the position of need on the Giants, we basically need two starting guards either in FA or the draft (assuming Zielter is gone) 

My solution? As said Linsey for 10 million a year (2 year 20-22 million) and draft Cosmi in round two, who has played both guard and tackle. Also go get Oday from the Lions. 

We go into the year with Thomas/Linsey/Gates/Lemieux(Oday as back up/ Cosmi(Peart swing guy) I'd be fine with it.

But we need some depth behind Peart and Lemieux and guys who can start. 

[gmenroc]

Let Williams walk, resign Louis Nix....oh wait

[NeMesiS]

On 2/27/2021 at 3:47 PM, BlueInCanada said:

I think Henandez is now a bench guy until he gets his shit figured out, if he ever does which doesnt look good at this point

Lemieux stepped into his job and looked better despite being a turnstyle in pass block. Which is why I'd like to get a guy like Easton or Linsey (preferably) to replace Zeitler and then try to work out the other guard spot. 

I have no problem with rolling into the season with Peart at RT, it's a strength position not a technique position and Peart should excel there. However as Shakes said it can't be the only option. Can we restructure Solder to be the back up RT? Do we bring in vet? Resign Flemming? 

Right now guard is the position of need on the Giants, we basically need two starting guards either in FA or the draft (assuming Zielter is gone) 

My solution? As said Linsey for 10 million a year (2 year 20-22 million) and draft Cosmi in round two, who has played both guard and tackle. Also go get Oday from the Lions. 

We go into the year with Thomas/Linsey/Gates/Lemieux(Oday as back up/ Cosmi(Peart swing guy) I'd be fine with it.

But we need some depth behind Peart and Lemieux and guys who can start. 

I was actually shocked Hernandez graded higher than Lemieux according to PFF. But the eye test showed other wise. I think the priority is the OLines this offseason. I'm sorry but the pass blocking was horrible. 

[Sephiroth]

7 hours ago, NeMesiS said:

I was actually shocked Hernandez graded higher than Lemieux according to PFF. But the eye test showed other wise. I think the priority is the OLines this offseason. I'm sorry but the pass blocking was horrible. 

It was.

It makes it really tough to evaluate Jones when 3/5 of your line and all your Ears are bad.

 

 

[Tempest]

8 hours ago, NeMesiS said:

I was actually shocked Hernandez graded higher than Lemieux according to PFF. But the eye test showed other wise. I think the priority is the OLines this offseason. I'm sorry but the pass blocking was horrible. 

PFF didn't like one thing about Lemieux.  As far as the eye test, didn't see a difference between the two.  I didn't think he was better or understood why he stayed out there after Hernandez came back from Covid.

[CrazedDogs]

the way it looked to me is Thomas and Gates both improved their level of play about the time Lemieux went in the lineup. Especially Thomas. I really think it was a total coincidence, not an indictment on Hernandez at all. 

not that Hernandez played well, he just didn't play worse than Lemieux.