Giants 1st Round Mocks

[Mr. P]

3 minutes ago, BlueInCanada said:

It depends on how much $$$ you spend in FA.

If Williams goes and signs a 8-9 million a year contract with the Bucs, but the Giants go out and sign Jones/Clowney/Najuookykugkukugjujujuj for 15+ million a year, then they wont get a pick.

The best case scenario is the Giants put a second round tender on Williams, and some team is dumb enough to give us a second round pick for Williams and signs him away from the team.

He’s unrestricted, we can’t put a round tender. 
 

Our choices are: sign him, let him walk, franchise tag, transition tag. 
 

 

[CrazedDogs]

and the tags aren't a good option because he made like $14 million last year.... either tag would make him damn near the highest paid DL in the league. 

 

[BlueInCanada]

3 minutes ago, Pdouble said:

He’s unrestricted, we can’t put a round tender. 
 

Our choices are: sign him, let him walk, franchise tag, transition tag. 
 

 

Damn for some reason I thought he was restricted.

 

[mastershake]

21 hours ago, Tempest said:

It is amazing to me that this is an issue.  Giants won 4 games and this is what fans are hung up on.

You're not concerned with giving up two draft picks, a high 3rd and 4th/5th?

You're not concerned with potentially overpaying for only a decent starter, and wasting precious cap space?

Those are the assets to use to improve the team.

Either way, that trade was gross incompetence on Gettlemen's part. Possibly his worst move this season. Can you name a worse move from Gettlemen last season?

 

[Tempest]

1 hour ago, mastershake said:

You're not concerned with giving up two draft picks, a high 3rd and 4th/5th?

You're not concerned with potentially overpaying for only a decent starter, and wasting precious cap space?

Those are the assets to use to improve the team.

Either way, that trade was gross incompetence on Gettlemen's part. Possibly his worst move this season. Can you name a worse move from Gettlemen last season?

 

All in the past, can't be changed.  What can be changed is where Leonard Williams plays going forward.  Giants haven't signed Leonard Williams yet so nobody knows what he will sign for and where.  I'd rather the Giants had traded for him and choose not to keep him over signing him long term and then realizing they overpaid for him and have that contract impacting the team for years to come.  Nobody in their right mind is sitting here thinking about the draft picks the Giants gave up when they traded for Eli Manning.  Nobody will be thinking about the two draft picks the Giants traded away for Leonard Williams five years from now. 

Personally I think Gettleman has gotten more right than wrong and don't waste time thinking about what he got wrong.  

[BlueInCanada]

34 minutes ago, Tempest said:

All in the past, can't be changed.  What can be changed is where Leonard Williams plays going forward.  Giants haven't signed Leonard Williams yet so nobody knows what he will sign for and where.  I'd rather the Giants had traded for him and choose not to keep him over signing him long term and then realizing they overpaid for him and have that contract impacting the team for years to come.  Nobody in their right mind is sitting here thinking about the draft picks the Giants gave up when they traded for Eli Manning.  Nobody will be thinking about the two draft picks the Giants traded away for Leonard Williams five years from now. 

Personally I think Gettleman has gotten more right than wrong and don't waste time thinking about what he got wrong.  

Because Eli worked out.

If Leonard walks and this team is still sitting at below .500 the next couple of seasons people will have a problem with this Williams trade and will be one of the thinga that is used as ammo to fire Getty.

 

 

[mastershake]

44 minutes ago, Tempest said:

All in the past, can't be changed.  What can be changed is where Leonard Williams plays going forward.  Giants haven't signed Leonard Williams yet so nobody knows what he will sign for and where.  I'd rather the Giants had traded for him and choose not to keep him over signing him long term and then realizing they overpaid for him and have that contract impacting the team for years to come.  Nobody in their right mind is sitting here thinking about the draft picks the Giants gave up when they traded for Eli Manning.  Nobody will be thinking about the two draft picks the Giants traded away for Leonard Williams five years from now. 

Personally I think Gettleman has gotten more right than wrong and don't waste time thinking about what he got wrong.  

He's incompetent because he has us in a lose lose situation.

If Williams walks, we lose a 3rd and 5th to have had a guy for 8 games.

If Williams re-signs, Getty likely overpays for only a mid tier starter, and we lose a 3rd and 4th.

This is hardly comparable to the Eli trade, a trade for a franchise QB vs a midseason trade for an underachieving 5th year DL in a failed season about to turn FA.

I'd rather the Giants had traded for him and choose not to keep him over signing him long term and then realizing they overpaid for him and have that contract impacting the team for years to come. 

If Getty wasn't able to evaluate Williams based on 4 1/2 years in the league, then he shouldn't be signing or trading for him, or Getty should consider another line of work. I don't buy that we needed to trade two draft picks for an 8 game audition for the guy...what other team does this? Heck, when have the Giants ever traded draft picks to audition a guy for half a season?

[mastershake]

15 minutes ago, BlueInCanada said:

Because Eli worked out.

If Leonard walks and this team is still sitting at below .500 the next couple of seasons people will have a problem with this Williams trade and will be one of the thinga that is used as ammo to fire Getty.

 

 

I doubt anyone is going to lose sleep over losing Williams. He's not going anywhere else and pulling a Shaq Barrett type enlightenment.

If anything, if we sign him to a big deal and he underachieves as he always has, that will be the ammo to fire Getty.

[BlueInCanada]

6 minutes ago, mastershake said:

He's incompetent because he has us in a lose lose situation.

If Williams walks, we lose a 3rd and 5th to have had a guy for 8 games.

If Williams re-signs, Getty likely overpays for only a mid tier starter, and we lose a 3rd and 4th.

This is hardly comparable to the Eli trade, a trade for a franchise QB vs a midseason trade for an underachieving 5th year DL in a failed season about to turn FA.

I'd rather the Giants had traded for him and choose not to keep him over signing him long term and then realizing they overpaid for him and have that contract impacting the team for years to come. 

If Getty wasn't able to evaluate Williams based on 4 1/2 years in the league, then he shouldn't be signing or trading for him, or Getty should consider another line of work. I don't buy that we needed to trade two draft picks for an 8 game audition for the guy...what other team does this? Heck, when have the Giants ever traded draft picks to audition a guy for half a season?

See that's my thinking as well.

You have years of tape and game film, you have scouts you pay to watch players, and you can't determine if he's going to be worth a contract unless he's playing in a Giants uniform?

Has there EVER been a time in the NFL when a team traded for a player just for an "audition" with no contract in place for when he arrives?

[CrazedDogs]

the thing they never said about the Williams trade is, the team wasn't mathematically eliminated at that point - far from it, the entire division was struggling. That move was an attempt to compete in 2019.

teams in the playoff hunt do sometimes trade for players at the end of their contract. 

 

 

[BlueInCanada]

4 minutes ago, CrazedDogs said:

the thing they never said about the Williams trade is, the team wasn't mathematically eliminated at that point - far from it, the entire division was struggling. That move was an attempt to compete in 2019.

teams in the playoff hunt do sometimes trade for players at the end of their contract. 

 

 

See I would agree but they traded for a player who didnt have a single sack all year, and five sacks in the last three.

It's not like they went out and traded for Kahlil Mack or some proven pass rusher of defensive playmaker/leader.

They traded for a former first round massively underachieving player.

That's not something playoff teams do lol

[CrazedDogs]

5 minutes ago, BlueInCanada said:

See I would agree but they traded for a player who didnt have a single sack all year, and five sacks in the last three.

It's not like they went out and traded for Kahlil Mack or some proven pass rusher of defensive playmaker/leader.

They traded for a former first round massively underachieving player.

That's not something playoff teams do lol

If a guy improves the team I can't fault the move. But I think the most damning thing about the trade wasn't what we gave up, it was that Gettleman thought the Giants might be just one Leonard Williams away from competing. 

 

[mastershake]

42 minutes ago, CrazedDogs said:

If a guy improves the team I can't fault the move. But I think the most damning thing about the trade wasn't what we gave up, it was that Gettleman thought the Giants might be just one Leonard Williams away from competing. 

 

The team was going nowhere last season. Trading away a high 3rd and 4th/5th for an underachiever for only 8 games in a losing season is gross incompetence. As I said, what other team does this? What the heck did we just get for our precious draft picks, key assets we need to build a winning team?

At least when the Lions traded for Harrison, and Saint Eli Apple, they gave up far less for guys that they planned to have around for at least two plus years.

Getty got rolled by the Jets.

[BlueInCanada]

1 hour ago, CrazedDogs said:

If a guy improves the team I can't fault the move. But I think the most damning thing about the trade wasn't what we gave up, it was that Gettleman thought the Giants might be just one Leonard Williams away from competing. 

 

And once again I agree, if you think a player wil help your team, then go get them.

However if if Gettleman honestly thought this team was one Leonard Williams away from 11-5 then holy fuck this guy needs to put the crack pipe down and get his ass out of the Giants FO.

[CrazedDogs]

57 minutes ago, BlueInCanada said:

And once again I agree, if you think a player wil help your team, then go get them.

However if if Gettleman honestly thought this team was one Leonard Williams away from 11-5 then holy fuck this guy needs to put the crack pipe down and get his ass out of the Giants FO.

well I don't even think that was the thinking.... but maybe that they were maybe one Leonard Williams away from 8-8 and backing into the playoffs?... definitely. And even that was incredibly unlikely.

 

[mastershake]

31 minutes ago, CrazedDogs said:

well I don't even think that was the thinking.... but maybe that they were maybe one Leonard Williams away from 8-8 and backing into the playoffs?... definitely. And even that was incredibly unlikely.

 

If Gettlemen thought that, then that's just another illustration of his incompetence.

I also don't understand exactly why BJ Hill was in the doghouse all season, after a promising rookie year.

[BlueInCanada]

1 hour ago, CrazedDogs said:

well I don't even think that was the thinking.... but maybe that they were maybe one Leonard Williams away from 8-8 and backing into the playoffs?... definitely. And even that was incredibly unlikely.

 

Even if that's the case i still hold my opinion.

It's Leonard Williams the guy didn't have have a meaningful game for three seasons before they traded for him.

He was on his way off the Jets roster with a big old bust sign on his backside.

What in the flying fuck made them think he would win them one game let a lone 4?

Getty deserves a flogging for this trade, despite the things he may have done right so far with this team.

And no CD the anger isnt directed at you,  I agree with what you said you need to make moves that you think will help the team.

Its just the fact that I'm sick of the Giants being known as a dumpster fire of an organization and trading away valuable team building capitol for a guy who might not even be on the team next year.

If they traded for like Justin Houston for a third and fifth then great you added a solid player.

Not Leonard Williams lol

[CrazedDogs]

11 hours ago, mastershake said:

If Gettlemen thought that, then that's just another illustration of his incompetence.

I also don't understand exactly why BJ Hill was in the doghouse all season, after a promising rookie year.

I zeroed in on Hill this year.... he got sloppy fat. 

 

[Tempest]

15 hours ago, CrazedDogs said:

If a guy improves the team I can't fault the move. But I think the most damning thing about the trade wasn't what we gave up, it was that Gettleman thought the Giants might be just one Leonard Williams away from competing. 

 

I haven't seen a single quote from Gettleman or anyone with that idea being the reason the Giants brought in Leonard Williams.

[Tempest]

16 hours ago, mastershake said:

He's incompetent because he has us in a lose lose situation.

If Williams walks, we lose a 3rd and 5th to have had a guy for 8 games.

If Williams re-signs, Getty likely overpays for only a mid tier starter, and we lose a 3rd and 4th.

This is hardly comparable to the Eli trade, a trade for a franchise QB vs a midseason trade for an underachieving 5th year DL in a failed season about to turn FA.

I'd rather the Giants had traded for him and choose not to keep him over signing him long term and then realizing they overpaid for him and have that contract impacting the team for years to come. 

If Getty wasn't able to evaluate Williams based on 4 1/2 years in the league, then he shouldn't be signing or trading for him, or Getty should consider another line of work. I don't buy that we needed to trade two draft picks for an 8 game audition for the guy...what other team does this? Heck, when have the Giants ever traded draft picks to audition a guy for half a season?

This has to play out for a while longer before we can determine this is a lose/lose situation.  I remember Albert Haynesworth, had two really good seasons for the Titans then the Redskins signed him in the off-season to a massive contract at the time.  This is what I'm thinking about and the situation we need to avoid.  I could care less about two draft picks, Giants have wasted entire drafts the last few years.

[mastershake]

1 hour ago, Tempest said:

This has to play out for a while longer before we can determine this is a lose/lose situation.  I remember Albert Haynesworth, had two really good seasons for the Titans then the Redskins signed him in the off-season to a massive contract at the time.  This is what I'm thinking about and the situation we need to avoid.  I could care less about two draft picks, Giants have wasted entire drafts the last few years.

The draft is largely how you build your team, and the those pics are precious assets Getty just squandered for nothing. This "we needed an 8 game audition to find out about him" excuse is a joke. Again, if Getty couldn't get a read on a player after 4 1/2 years in the league, he should not have pursued the guy.

Most teams, good teams, covet their draft picks. Winning teams. Even middle round picks matter. For example KC:

Kelce: 3rd rounder.

Tyreke Hill: 5th rounder.

Mahomes: Their trade included a 3rd round pick to get him.

Nobody gives their DL enough credit but Derrick Nnadi, Kalen Saunders: 3rd rounders.

You brought up the Eli trade. Guess what was part of the trade to bring him in...middle round picks!

The reason you don't care about draft picks is because you don't know what you're doing.

[CrazedDogs]

1 hour ago, Tempest said:

I haven't seen a single quote from Gettleman or anyone with that idea being the reason the Giants brought in Leonard Williams.

that's why I said, nobody said that was the reason.... but look at the history of mid season trades.... it never happens, NEVER, except when a team is trying to get that last little bit for a playoff push. And look at the divisional records at the time.... the Giants were right in the thick of it. 

Like hell they weren't wish-thinking Williams would make the difference on defense. 

[Tempest]

3 hours ago, CrazedDogs said:

that's why I said, nobody said that was the reason.... but look at the history of mid season trades.... it never happens, NEVER, except when a team is trying to get that last little bit for a playoff push. And look at the divisional records at the time.... the Giants were right in the thick of it. 

Like hell they weren't wish-thinking Williams would make the difference on defense. 

If they thought Williams was going to be the difference in how the season turned out, they couldn't have been more wrong.  I think they were already looking to 2020 when they made the deal for Williams.  Most of the problems with the defense was in the secondary and still are.  We talk about pass rush around here but who's getting to the QB in 2 seconds on any team regularly?

[Tempest]

3 hours ago, mastershake said:

The draft is largely how you build your team, and the those pics are precious assets Getty just squandered for nothing. This "we needed an 8 game audition to find out about him" excuse is a joke. Again, if Getty couldn't get a read on a player after 4 1/2 years in the league, he should not have pursued the guy.

Most teams, good teams, covet their draft picks. Winning teams. Even middle round picks matter. For example KC:

Kelce: 3rd rounder.

Tyreke Hill: 5th rounder.

Mahomes: Their trade included a 3rd round pick to get him.

Nobody gives their DL enough credit but Derrick Nnadi, Kalen Saunders: 3rd rounders.

You brought up the Eli trade. Guess what was part of the trade to bring him in...middle round picks!

The reason you don't care about draft picks is because you don't know what you're doing.

I could have brought up the Giants trade to pick up Andre Baker, I brought up Eli Manning because he is been in the news lately with his retirement and was thinking about his career.  Giants traded their Second round, Fourth and Fifth round picks to move back into the First round for Andre Baker.  I'm not an NFL GM, are you?  Neither of us are qualified since you know as much as I do.  Reason I don't care about those draft picks is because it was never my decision in the first place. 

Mara, Tisch, and Gettleman never call me, I would have told them to hold to our picks and bring in Leonard Williams after letting the market set his value.  I don't think they called you either.

[mastershake]

5 hours ago, Tempest said:

I could have brought up the Giants trade to pick up Andre Baker, I brought up Eli Manning because he is been in the news lately with his retirement and was thinking about his career.  Giants traded their Second round, Fourth and Fifth round picks to move back into the First round for Andre Baker.  I'm not an NFL GM, are you?  Neither of us are qualified since you know as much as I do.  Reason I don't care about those draft picks is because it was never my decision in the first place. 

Mara, Tisch, and Gettleman never call me, I would have told them to hold to our picks and bring in Leonard Williams after letting the market set his value.  I don't think they called you either.

Oh now you don't care about the draft picks because it was never your decision? When has any Giants front office decision been your decision? Lol

I didn't say I was an expert. All I said is it's rudimentary football knowledge that draft picks, which don't matter to you, are precious assets that help build a team. One must work in an NFL front office to grasp that?

Having said that, let's review the facts:

- We traded a 3rd and 4th/5th rounder (and a high draft picks in each round) for an underachieving Leonard Williams, for 8 games in a failing season.

So what the hell did we get in return for those two draft picks? What other team not going on a playoff run does this?

If we wanted him as a FA all along, we could have bid for and signed him in the off-season without giving up two draft picks, one of which is a premium pick.

Getty threw away and wasted those draft picks for NOTHING. That is gross incompetence.

And when you say we've wasted entire drafts...yeah. Bad GMs waste their draft picks. Our GM just wasted two of ours.