Shurmur expected to be fired at season's end, Getty expected to be on short leash.

[mastershake]

1 minute ago, BlueInCanada said:

In not taking about this year I even said he was having a bad year.

But for some reason you're getting all defensive over it lol

PFF doesn't have evaluators it's run by a couple guys who put stats into a computer algorithm and spot out a number lol

Hernandez last year was the only bright spot on the Oline of you've forgotten about it then fine but I don't see how you can say he wasn't impressive his rookie year

He had the same problems last year as he has this year.

[BlueInCanada]

Just now, mastershake said:

You are setting up straw men here. The point is we should see progress in two years, over what was an atrocious OL previously, and a pretty low bar previously set...Yet, the OL now is as bad as it was 2-3 years ago, and 4/5ths of the current line should not be starting in this league.

Right and you asked how long they need.

I responded saying most GMs get 3 or 4 years.

Then you went off with all of this heh.

No straw men here bud just responding to you.

 

[BlueInCanada]

Just now, mastershake said:

He had the same problems last year as he has this year.

Ok sounds good so we are in agreement that he's having a bad year and the coaching hasn't done anything to help and could be a lack of talent as well.

[BlueInCanada]

Oh and I'd still like to know which GM or team that have completely turned over a roster had it playing at an NFL level in two years? 

Not defending Getty.

I'd just like to know what type of GM we should hire since they are out there.

[mastershake]

1 minute ago, BlueInCanada said:

Ok sounds good so we are in agreement that he's having a bad year and the coaching hasn't done anything to help and could be a lack of talent as well.

Where I agree is that the jury is still out on him. He just doesn't look like a starter now.

[mastershake]

3 minutes ago, BlueInCanada said:

Oh and I'd still like to know which GM or team that have completely turned over a roster had it playing at an NFL level in two years? 

Not defending Getty

I'd just like to know what type of GM we should hire since they are out there.

I'm not going through every franchise the past several years to look this up. Again, we can only evaluate the moves we've seen from DG, and so far 3/5 of the moves on the OL are a disaster (one of which is the worst contract in the entire NFL, IMO), 1 the jury is still out but he shouldn't be starting now, and the other, Zeitler, I've said is a good move. 

Overall though, our OL is as bad as it was 3-4 years ago, and 4/5 moves from DG have not panned out, and he had an extremely low bar to try to beat, which he can't.

[CrazedDogs]

5 minutes ago, mastershake said:

Would you call DG's moves on the OL a success??? lol... 4/5ths of the line should not be starting in this league.

"But he's only had two years" is a pathetic excuse.

I don't know if we have enough info to know if the acquisitions on the OL aren't working out because they aren't good enough players, or if its because other things that are or aren't going on... if 4/5ths of this line shouldn't be starting in the league, and in most cases we can all agree that the new guys are at least on paper an upgrade or a sideways move compared on the old guys, then why is it that the old guys that  really shouldn't have been starting either (Flowers, Jerry, Hart, Omameh, etc.), are all still starting in the league?.. and playing better than they ever did for us? 

When I see our OL fail, its usually not due to physical deficiencies.... its due to miscommunications.... that is a commonality across all players we've had here for a couple regimes in a row. So is the problem the players? I'm growing doubtful. 

Just imagine how much better off we'd be if Marshall Fucking Newhouse was our starting left tackle. Wait, what? Newhouse, left tackle, after how he played for us at right tackle? Well other teams figured it out.... what's different here?

 

[mastershake]

1 minute ago, CrazedDogs said:

I don't know if we have enough info to know if the acquisitions on the OL aren't working out because they aren't good enough players, or if its because other things that are or aren't going on... if 4/5ths of this line shouldn't be starting in the league, and in most cases we can all agree that the new guys are at least on paper an upgrade or a sideways move compared on the old guys, then why is it that the old guys that  really shouldn't have been starting either (Flowers, Jerry, Hart, Omameh, etc.), are all still starting in the league?.. and playing better than they ever did for us? 

When I see our OL fail, its usually not due to physical deficiencies.... its due to miscommunications.... that is a commonality across all players we've had here for a couple regimes in a row. So is the problem the players? I'm growing doubtful. 

Just imagine how much better off we'd be if Marshall Fucking Newhouse was our starting left tackle. Wait, what? Newhouse, left tackle, after how he played for us at right tackle? Well other teams figured it out.... what's different here?

 

Jerry, Hart, and Flowers aren't exactly having success elsewhere. You're referring to lineman who are currently part of really bad lines on really bad teams. 

Omameh is ranked just as bad as Hernandez, and he's only a backup in NO, as he should be.

[mastershake]

The Bengals offense by the way (Hart and Jerry) are the 2nd worst offense in the league.

[mastershake]

By the way, an example of turning over an OL in two years is the NY Giants. In 2005, Snee, Kareem McKenzie, and Shaun O'Hara were not on the line two years prior to that season, and the offense from 2003 - 2005 went from 30th in points to 3rd. 

[CrazedDogs]

2 minutes ago, mastershake said:

Jerry, Hart, and Flowers aren't exactly having success elsewhere. You're referring to lineman who are currently part of really bad lines on really bad teams. 

Omameh is ranked just as bad as Hernandez, and he's only a backup in NO, as he should be.

they're still playing aren't they? Omameh may be a backup, but he plays a lot, including a stint at left tackle this season. Can you imagine putting him at LT, based on how he looked in a Giants uniform? Never, ever. 

I'm not saying they're good players, lol....  just pointing out that as bad as our OL is, we've had worse players, and a lot of them are still playing. So I don't think the problem is the players, or at least not only the players. Because we keep changing the players, but get the same results, so there's surely another common denominator there. 

[mastershake]

1 minute ago, CrazedDogs said:

they're still playing aren't they? Omameh may be a backup, but he plays a lot, including a stint at left tackle this season. Can you imagine putting him at LT, based on how he looked in a Giants uniform? Never, ever. 

I'm not saying they're good players, lol....  just pointing out that as bad as our OL is, we've had worse players, and a lot of them are still playing. So I don't think the problem is the players, or at least not only the players. Because we keep changing the players, but get the same results, so there's surely another common denominator there. 

Hart and Jerry playing for a college football team doesn't count, lol

[CrazedDogs]

3 minutes ago, mastershake said:

Hart and Jerry playing for a college football team doesn't count, lol

lol, yeah I was just saying to a Bengals fan, I'd love to know who it was in their front office that watched the 2017 NY Giants and thought it would be a good idea to go get some of THAT. 

 

[Herc]

The roster sucks but this guy went for 2 down 14 points.  

[Sephiroth]

32 minutes ago, CrazedDogs said:

they're still playing aren't they? Omameh may be a backup, but he plays a lot, including a stint at left tackle this season. Can you imagine putting him at LT, based on how he looked in a Giants uniform? Never, ever. 

I'm not saying they're good players, lol....  just pointing out that as bad as our OL is, we've had worse players, and a lot of them are still playing. So I don't think the problem is the players, or at least not only the players. Because we keep changing the players, but get the same results, so there's surely another common denominator there. 

Yeah honestly it seems to be a league-wide thing.  O-lines just aren't as good as they used to be. 

According to PFF, our line improved... slightly. Keep in mind too though, Pugh missed almost an entire season last year and I believe this is the second year Richburg is going on IR, so how useful are they really?  Also, Flowers is being rated as a guard... last time he played LT his rating was a 48.4, which is historically bad. 

This line isn't great but I'd take them over the 2017 version, no doubt. 

 

2017 O-line

 

Bobby Hart - 55.8

Dj Fluker - 60.2

Weston Richburg - 59.8

Justin Pugh - 66.5

Ereck Flowers 63.5

 

Average: 61.2

 

2019 O-line

 

Mike Remmers - 64.4

Kevin Zeitler - 73.7

Jon Halapio - 50.3

Will Hernandez 59.0

Nate Solder - 65.5

 

Average: 62.58

[mastershake]

26 minutes ago, CrazedDogs said:

lol, yeah I was just saying to a Bengals fan, I'd love to know who it was in their front office that watched the 2017 NY Giants and thought it would be a good idea to go get some of THAT. 

 

LOL

[mastershake]

2 minutes ago, Sephiroth said:

Yeah honestly it seems to be a league-wide thing.  O-lines just aren't as good as they used to be. 

According to PFF, our line improved... slightly. Keep in mind too though, Pugh missed almost an entire season last year and I believe this is the second year Richburg is going on IR, so how useful are they really?  Also, Flowers is being rated as a guard... last time he played LT his rating was a 48.4, which is historically bad. 

This line isn't great but I'd take them over the 2017 version, no doubt. 

 

 

2017 O-line

 

Bobby Hart - 55.8

Dj Fluker - 60.2

Weston Richburg - 59.8

Justin Pugh - 66.5

Ereck Flowers 63.5

 

Average: 61.2

 

2019 O-line

 

Mike Remmers - 64.4

Kevin Zeitler - 73.7

Jon Halapio - 50.3

Will Hernandez 59.0

Nate Solder - 65.5

 

Average: 62.58

 

I think at that point, we're within the margin of error. The increase is driven all by Zeitler, lol

[Sephiroth]

20 minutes ago, mastershake said:

 

I think at that point, we're within the margin of error. The increase is driven all by Zeitler, lol

I look at it this way:

Remmers > Hart

Zeitler > Fluker

Halapio = Richburg (Richburg doesn't play a full season ever and was poorly rated last year)

Hernandez < Pugh (but again, Pugh doesn't play and Will H at least has room to grow)

Solder > LT Flowers 

[mastershake]

44 minutes ago, Sephiroth said:

I look at it this way:

Remmers > Hart

Zeitler > Fluker

Halapio = Richburg (Richburg doesn't play a full season ever and was poorly rated last year)

Hernandez < Pugh (but again, Pugh doesn't play and Will H at least has room to grow)

Solder > LT Flowers 

Makes sense.

 

Though went from an F to a D-, lol

[Storm]

Fluker is blocking for Drew Brees isn’t he?

[Storm]

2 hours ago, CrazedDogs said:

 

The roster is awful, and Shurmur is also, quite obviously, really bad. I get the issue with letting him go, stability and all that, but how many mistakes do we need to see him make to know that he isn't the guy? Over and over again, errors that are entirely unrelated to whether or not rookies are on the field. For all his built in excuses, there's no excuse for his actual performance, and no reason to think he'll suddenly be smarter or more prepared just because next year's roster may be a little more experienced. A poor roster doesn't explain the continual tactical failures that have nothing to do with a player carrying out a play as its drawn up. Coughlin got forced into retirement for those kinds of mistakes, and he brought two rings to the table. 

of course the roster is so bad I could see a perfectly competent coach going 2-14..... its not about the record. Its about the mistakes and the regression of all the young talent on the roster. 

 

Well, he’s not telling Rosas to miss all those kicks and then plunk one out of bounds. 
 

I just don’t see the “tactical failures”.
 

Calling a time out with 17 seconds left with Doug Pederson, who is well known for playing analytics, having the Eagles lined up to go for it with your defense looking completely frantic is not a tactical error. Jake Elliott beat us just last year with a 60+ yard field goal. If he doesn’t call time out there and the Eagles run a quick out to Ertz, they win in regulation. The timeout was to get a defensive playcall in.

Of course, calling time out with 40 seconds left and then the Eagles still go for it, gives the Eagles even more time to get even closer. But it also gives the Giants plenty of time if the Eagles fail on a 4th down. Which is why Pederson letting the clock run down makes it look even more convincing that he’s going for it. 

[Storm]

3 hours ago, Tempest said:

Remember how we always complained about Tom Coughlin burying the rookie classes in the depth chart and slowly bringing them into the starting rotation?  After this season, I see the reason why.  So many inexperienced starters on defense mixed in with under-performing veterans has killed the season for the Giants.

But I think in the long run, on a team that never bothered to retool, starting rookies and gathering cap space is exactly what needs to happen. Even when you have to take your lumps.

[mastershake]

27 minutes ago, Storm said:

Well, he’s not telling Rosas to miss all those kicks and then plunk one out of bounds. 
 

I just don’t see the “tactical failures”.
 

Calling a time out with 17 seconds left with Doug Pederson, who is well known for playing analytics, having the Eagles lined up to go for it with your defense looking completely frantic is not a tactical error. Jake Elliott beat us just last year with a 60+ yard field goal. If he doesn’t call time out there and the Eagles run a quick out to Ertz, they win in regulation. The timeout was to get a defensive playcall in.

Of course, calling time out with 40 seconds left and then the Eagles still go for it, gives the Eagles even more time to get even closer. But it also gives the Giants plenty of time if the Eagles fail on a 4th down. Which is why Pederson letting the clock run down makes it look even more convincing that he’s going for it. 

I see more macro level mistakes than tactical ones or specific individual decisions. For instance, poor game planning, poor in game adjustments...e.g. coming out of the half of the Phili game and only gaining 40 yards or whatever is unacceptable. 

Granted, he has been dealt poor set of cards, but I can't help but think another coach (e.g. Frank Reich, Tomlin, Mike McCarthy, etc) would do better. 

Moreover, his attitude...he almost seems content with just being in the game (within a score), or playing well for a quarter or two, even if they lose. He makes endless excuses (we're young, we're injured, oh that player made a mistake).

I also go back to the Kim Jones question "Name one area where this team has progressed from the beginning of the season until now."

[mastershake]

I also think he's mis-using Barkely.

[mastershake]

42 minutes ago, Storm said:

Fluker is blocking for Drew Brees isn’t he?

He's the starting RG for the Seahawks.

PFF has Fluker as bad as he was 2 years ago.

The Seahawks O-line, minus Duane Brown, isn't all that great either, but they have a coach who knows how to scheme using the QB and skill players that he has to generate offense.