Gman329 Posted December 1, 2014 Share Posted December 1, 2014 Back to Eli..... Putting aside the contract/cap number issue for a moment and just focusing on the current state of the on field product, let me pose this question: if you could have a top Offensive Line, say the Cowboys (at their best, not the Thanksgiving version) and keep Eli as the QB, along with our current receivers & RBs.....OR, keep our OL that finished the game yesterday and have Aaron Rodgers as our QB, with all our WRs & RBs, which do you think would be more effective? Discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nas Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Miss the good old years of Kurt Warner, Kerry Collins, Jesse Palmer, Kent Graham, Danny Kanell and Dave Brown huh. How many super bowl wins between them? Ok how many playoff appearances? What is the return rate on the investment at Quarterback again? I don't think that's what Gmenroc was saying.. The Giants didn't pay and arm and a leg for any of the QBs you mentioned... Yes Eli has got us somewhere and 2 championships are nothing to sneeze at but at this point of his career and over the past few season, he's been playing way below his pay grade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nas Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 It IS a bit of an exaggeration. But lets put it this way: we have one adequate guy on the O-line and four question marks. Last year? We had one adequate guy on the O-line and four question marks. Reese has had his chances to fix this shit, and we're getting WORSE results. We're not one or two guys away... right now we've got Eli, Beatty, Jennings, and Beckham as "sure things," and honestly you don't really know what you're getting out of those guys week to week, especially when you factor in how injured three of them are. And for the members of the board saying "keep Reese and Coughlin because you don't know what's out there to replace them with..." that is a LOSER'S mentality. Honestly, that's the most pathetic reason I've ever heard to keep ineffectual people in their jobs. THAT mentality is what keeps Moore on the bench... because the Giants "don't know what they have..." and keeps a scrub like Kiwi in the lineup. A bit harsh on Reese... We have better pieces on the OL this year than last.. problem is the injuries fucked us all up... and it's not like we didn't draft any OLs either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 A bit harsh on Reese... We have better pieces on the OL this year than last.. problem is the injuries fucked us all up... and it's not like we didn't draft any OLs either... Ok, lets put it another way then. Diehl Seubert O'hara Snee McKenzie Those are the guys Reese was dealt. Name the player that he replaced with someone of equal caliber. This is clearly going in the wrong direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nas Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Ok, lets put it another way then. Diehl Seubert O'hara Snee McKenzie Those are the guys Reese was dealt. Name the player that he replaced with someone of equal caliber. This is clearly going in the wrong direction. Got me there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigblue25 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Ok, lets put it another way then. Diehl Seubert O'hara Snee McKenzie Those are the guys Reese was dealt. Name the player that he replaced with someone of equal caliber. This is clearly going in the wrong direction. But, who was available when we picked that was the caliber of those guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishgutmartyr Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Ok, lets put it another way then. Diehl Seubert O'hara Snee McKenzie Those are the guys Reese was dealt. Name the player that he replaced with someone of equal caliber. This is clearly going in the wrong direction. The guy who dealt those players in 2004-2005 also dealt his coach Pettigout, Lucier, Bober, Diehl, and Allen the year before. There was even less reason to keep that GM in 2003 than there is keeping Reese now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GA4M Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Back to Eli..... Putting aside the contract/cap number issue for a moment and just focusing on the current state of the on field product, let me pose this question: if you could have a top Offensive Line, say the Cowboys (at their best, not the Thanksgiving version) and keep Eli as the QB, along with our current receivers & RBs.....OR, keep our OL that finished the game yesterday and have Aaron Rodgers as our QB, with all our WRs & RBs, which do you think would be more effective? Discuss. At this stage, give me a better QB. great QB's elevate the play of the entire team. you can't get anything going with, 5 ints, slop fumbles, and slow pocket movement that Eli displays every game. Manning is dragging this team down with his constant shit he brings to the field! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazedDogs Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Back to Eli..... Putting aside the contract/cap number issue for a moment and just focusing on the current state of the on field product, let me pose this question: if you could have a top Offensive Line, say the Cowboys (at their best, not the Thanksgiving version) and keep Eli as the QB, along with our current receivers & RBs.....OR, keep our OL that finished the game yesterday and have Aaron Rodgers as our QB, with all our WRs & RBs, which do you think would be more effective? Discuss. Definitely Eli with the good OL. Offensive line is the most important position on the offense. I'm curious what sort of numbers Eli would put up, we've never really seen him with both a good offensive line and good receivers at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazedDogs Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Ok, lets put it another way then. Diehl Seubert O'hara Snee McKenzie Those are the guys Reese was dealt. Name the player that he replaced with someone of equal caliber. This is clearly going in the wrong direction. All of them were, but only because they all sucked hard at the end of their time with the Giants. Baas was on par with O'Hara when he was on the field, but injuries took their toll there. Last season, I would have guessed Pugh would have been an upgrade over McKenzie or Diehl, whichever you're using as comparison at right tackle, but that hasn't worked out in 2014. Richburg is a fairly high draft pick for an interior lineman, it would be a huge miss for him to not be a player but its too early to tell. Then there is Will Beatty, who depending on the season looks like either a fringe Pro Bowler or a league bottom feeder. I guess if I have a point, its not like the offensive line has been completely neglected. It hasn't been the focus I would have preferred, but the problem is that all the swings have been misses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nas Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 The guy who dealt those players in 2004-2005 also dealt his coach Pettigout, Lucier, Bober, Diehl, and Allen the year before. There was even less reason to keep that GM in 2003 than there is keeping Reese now. How do you remember all of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herc Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 How do you remember all of this? http://bit.ly/rNgkvh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightFire Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Back to Eli..... Putting aside the contract/cap number issue for a moment and just focusing on the current state of the on field product, let me pose this question: if you could have a top Offensive Line, say the Cowboys (at their best, not the Thanksgiving version) and keep Eli as the QB, along with our current receivers & RBs.....OR, keep our OL that finished the game yesterday and have Aaron Rodgers as our QB, with all our WRs & RBs, which do you think would be more effective? Discuss. Definitely Eli with a good OLine. You're basically asking would you rather have a complete O or Rodgers. Rodgers is good but he has had issues carrying the team with mediocre OLines also. When the run game is effective Rodgers is very good just like Eli. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nas Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 http://bit.ly/rNgkvh Nah... Some people just have a knack for that stuff... You think Fish hits google everytime he posts his brilliant stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herc Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 you said "i dont know how you remember this stuff". that's what i'm responding to, not anything regarding his opinion. there's nothing wrong with googling minor details for stuff that happened 10 years ago, but considering the resources anybody has at their fingertips for researching these facts it's interesting how easily impressed you are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gman329 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Definitely Eli with a good OLine. You're basically asking would you rather have a complete O or Rodgers. Rodgers is good but he has had issues carrying the team with mediocre OLines also. When the run game is effective Rodgers is very good just like Eli. I agree....and in Rodgers, we're talking about the very best QB around today and one of the best I've ever seen. Now ask yourself how a more "human" QB would fare behind our OL and counting on our so-so receivers? Guys like Rivers, Big Ben, Cutler, Ryan, Stafford......they'd be like, "get me outta here"! Not saying Eli hasn't had his bad moments/games but you can't look at his game in a vacuum. There are 10 other guys in the equation and too often that's forgotten, on this Board and other places.....and I give Eli A LOT of credit for not once, in all his years here, throwing a teammate or a unit (like the OL) under the bus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmenroc Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Agree... I always cringed at the price we paid for Eli... I think we could have gotten just as much from Rivers... but be that as it may... his contract is a black hole that has the potential to suck down all of the money... Or Roethlisberger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmenroc Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Miss the good old years of Kurt Warner, Kerry Collins, Jesse Palmer, Kent Graham, Danny Kanell and Dave Brown huh. How many super bowl wins between them? Ok how many playoff appearances? What is the return rate on the investment at Quarterback again? 1. We didn't give up or pay a shit ton of money to those guys. You should understand that return on investment has two pieces to it...return AND investment. The investment in those other QBs you mention was not even in the ballpark of what we've invested in Eli. 2. Eli's supporting cast is better than those QBs you mention which brings into question the return he's brought. I'd argue that despite the Tyree play and despite the Manningham play...that the team surrounding Eli had a far bigger impact on those Super Bowl teams than did Eli. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishgutmartyr Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 How do you remember all of this? http://bit.ly/rNgkvh A little of both--I mean, how the hell do you forget Ian Allen falling backwards on his ass before a play to get a false start penalty? Anyone?... Anyone?...Please? And I remember being upset that we let Chris Bober go, since he was the only lineman with any experience that played with even a little competence that year. Fortunately, the FO had better ideas. Age is kind enough to let me forget the likes of Wayne Lucier or Brian Hatch. Now that I'm in that groove, though, maybe there is hope for the line--because now I'm thinking how fucking bad Diehl looked in his rookie year (Richburg), and how he looked before he went to LT (Pugh). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazedDogs Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 neither Roethlisberger or Rivers could have handled New York. Especially Big Ben, what with his rapey tendencies and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishgutmartyr Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 I agree....and in Rodgers, we're talking about the very best QB around today and one of the best I've ever seen. Now ask yourself how a more "human" QB would fare behind our OL and counting on our so-so receivers? Guys like Rivers, Big Ben, Cutler, Ryan, Stafford......they'd be like, "get me outta here"! Not saying Eli hasn't had his bad moments/games but you can't look at his game in a vacuum. There are 10 other guys in the equation and too often that's forgotten, on this Board and other places.....and I give Eli A LOT of credit for not once, in all his years here, throwing a teammate or a unit (like the OL) under the bus. People also forget that both Rivers and Roethlisberger walked onto teams which were very much run oriented. Pittsburgh had a great line, and San Diego had Tomlinson and Gates in their prime. Niether of those guys would have gotten a Lombardi in 2011. Roethlisberger would be behind bars in any other town than Pittsburgh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herc Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 see? i'm not dissing him, nas. it was 10 freaking years ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 The guy who dealt those players in 2004-2005 also dealt his coach Pettigout, Lucier, Bober, Diehl, and Allen the year before. There was even less reason to keep that GM in 2003 than there is keeping Reese now. I'd take that line over this one in a second. All those guys except Allen were decent to good players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazedDogs Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 People also forget that both Rivers and Roethlisberger walked onto teams which were very much run oriented. Pittsburgh had a great line, and San Diego had Tomlinson and Gates in their prime. Niether of those guys would have gotten a Lombardi in 2011. Roethlisberger would be behind bars in any other town than Pittsburgh. Yeah, Pittsburgh was stacked. So was San Diego for a while, largely thanks to the Eli trade, and Rivers never did shit with it. I'm really not sure how anybody can see Eli and those other two from 2004 as being on the same level. Eli has done more with less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishgutmartyr Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 I'd take that line over this one in a second. All those guys except Allen were decent to good players. That line put Collins on IR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now