Enough about coaching...what players does this team need? (incredibly long-winded)

[fishgutmartyr]

Since it's painfully obvious to all that someone has to die/retire for any coaching change to happen in this franchise at any level (and for any of you psycho-boys that might read this inadvertantly, I don't advocate the former), we may as well play the player-move game.

 

Here are my prejudices:

 

Oline: fix that, and a lot of the horrors of the offense this year goes away. Eli is less skittish (and this was the worst I've seen him in his career), and the WRs actually have time to run patterns.

 

WR: Not as bad as it looked this year. It's hard to really criticize these guys too much when your QB is spending more time on his back than a Mustang Ranch employee. A lot of dropped balls, but that's been their MO even in their best years--and when they're clicking, it's awesome to see.

 

RB: Oy...well, at least there's Conners. Love Brown as a running back: hate him as a health risk. It's mind-boggling that we had a more consistent running back tandem with Bradshaw as a feature back. (That's not a dig at Bradshaw--more like a shot at Bradshaw's feet.) We've tried to run the offense without a running game for 3 years now--that's too much pressure for any QB. Fouts had Chuck Muncie. Warner had Faulk. For most of the season, we didn't even have a back that could catch on the field. There is nothing keeping the defense honest.

 

TE: What the hell is going on here? On one hand, we have Pope getting chicken salad out of Ballard, Pascoe, and to an extent, Boss (Boss was a clearly better athlete than the other two). Then he can't do anything with Beckum, Myers, or Robinson. Well, I missed a few preseason games, so I don't know if I even saw Robinson. Assuming we go with Sullivan and a similar offensive system, someone had better look to see what type of tight end works with it--because the type we are signing/drafting high apparently doesn't...

 

Defense: I'm sorry, but I'm just not sold on them yet. A lot of the stats came after they were eliminated: for example, Tuck's sack total sky rocketed when it didn't matter anymore--so I'm dubious about where we wound up. I still think they came up short again in the second Dallas game. Still too many 3-man rushes. And I'm terrified that the front office will look at the ranking and say "We're good."

 

Safeties: If we extend Rolle to get his cap number down (he's earned an extension, I don't think anyone would argue otherwise), we're good here. The real worry is whether or not Will Hill can keep from getting suspended for a change. Both Brown and Mundy have shown potential, so signing either of them would work.

 

Corners: We have Prince for certain. I liked McBride. I loved Terrell Thomas, was thrilled that he contributed this year, but don't think I'd give him a contract. Hosley disappoints.

 

LB: What does it say when you trade a 7th for a player considered washed-up, and it turns the squad around? It says to me you resign him, draft his replacement to learn under him, and turn the squad over, so the new players can learn from a vet from a successful LB group. Herzlich was a good story; but so was Hamlet--not all good stories have happy endings.

 

DT: Re-sign Joseph. Maintain status quo as much as possible. This is the strength of the current line.

 

DE: Ut-oh. What do you do with Tuck? Is he the guy that played this year, or the one that was pretty much dormant the previous two? That's a high-priced gamble for a guy on the wrong side of 30. This spot is the easiest to fuck up, and a lot will depend on whether or not JPP is recovered, and Moore picks up some of the slack. Bye, Kiwi.

 

First thing I would try to do is extend Eli and Rolle, to get their cap numbers down. Rolle, as I mentioned before, earned it, and was a highlight this year. There's no sign of him slowing down; so it's worthwhile for both parties. He gets some "security," we get some breathing room.

 

Eli is a bit different. Yes, he's erratic. Yes, his play stunk this year, mitigating circumstances or not. But we're also $20 million in the hole with him this coming year, and we need some of that back if we want to fix this team to be competitive again.

 

Cut:

 

Baas: dump him as soon as financially feasible. He's not a terrible center: he just can't stay on the field, and that is crippling to an oline. Too expensive as a backup. Cope with the dead money as a June 1st cut.

 

Snee: He might be talking about coming back, but we shouldn't be. Wish he would consider retiring--he has been too good a player for us to retire in a different uniform as a shadow of what he once was.

 

Kiwi: Too much, for too little.

 

Diehl: Retire, for god's sake. It's done. It's been done. You're scaring the children.

 

Free Agency:

 

Tuck: Hate to say it, but I wouldn't re-sign him. Maybe there is "tread on the tires," but the suspension is shot. Too many holes, with just so much cap space tells me that this is a gamble that we can't afford to take.

 

Ross: No. Obviously. We seem to be capable of adding IR members without signing them on.

 

Nicks: I don't think he's done. I also don't think he's shown $10 mil/year this year. I would try to get a 2-year with options for both sides--let him show that this past year was an aberration (which I think it was), and then go for fair value in 2015. Probably won't happen, but that's what I would try to do; and with the injuries in 2012 and the production drop this year, his market value might not be as high as he hopes.

 

Joseph: Yes.

 

Patterson: At the current price, keep.

 

Hillis: Maybe, but not as a starter.

 

Brown: He just can't stay on the field, and I liked him when we drafted him. Rather not, but we might have to.

 

Boothe: I think we've gotten all we can get from him.

 

Brown (Kicker): Don't see a reason not to keep him.

 

Strategy: Sign them from their rookie contract. Sign the position from a team where the position is strong: a second string center from a strong Oline is probably better than a first stringer from a terrible one. No more mediocrity signings because they were 1st rounders in their drafts. Don't sign names, sign potential. We need youth, so sign it.

 

Center: Get in a time machine and re-sign O'Hara. A no name that has yet to flower. I'd rather ask "who?" at the beginning of his time here than at the end, like Baas...We need a vet, even a young one, because we need some leadership on this line. We're not going to have that from guards. Which is why I prefer not to draft a center to start.

 

LB: Well, we can't grow 'em, so we have to buy them. Keep Paysinger, he's played OK, and he's not exactly going to command a fortune.

 

DE: If we find a youngster, grab him--otherwise, draft one AFTER THE FUCKING 1ST ROUND.

 

Guards: Ugh. If we can find one, get him. If we can find two (starter and backup), do that. I don't see a whole lot on this squad showing me starter. We need at least one, from here or the draft; and then only if something develops with Henderson or Mosely. Yep, we'll probably need two.

 

OT: Backup type ala Shaun Locklear. We have no backups of note: unless you feel comfortable with Mosely and Kropog(GO PORK!). At most, Right Tackle.

 

RB: We don't need anything but consistency here. We're not going to have a great running attack, barring a miracle. There's just going to be too many x-factors between oline and running backs, so assume the worst and go for enough of a running game to keep defenses from completely bottling up the passing game. Someone who can catch would be spiffy.

 

Draft:(The first two are non-negotiable; the rest are mix and match)

 

OT: I actually like Beatty. But I'm not blind, and he stunk it up this year: and he's injured. He's good typically, but unlucky with injuries. We should be able to get a good one this year in the first round. And while Pugh was the only positive on this line at RT, he may wind up a guard down the road if we can't find one. Draft one, and Beatty earns a starting Tackle spot, or is gone ASAP.

 

OG: We need to replace the lot of them, assuming nothing comes from Henderson.

 

CB: We're in pretty good shape, but we could be better.

 

RB: We can't rely on Brown; we DEFINITELY can't rely on Wilson--and that's not considering his play. We don't know what we have with da Cox.

 

LB: Please...You've seen what decent linebackers can do.

 

DE: I'm sure they already have this one pencilled-in. Probably first round. Sigh.

 

Center (Later rounds, or UDFA): This assumes a free agent center. For back up and competition the following year. Unless you feel Cordle is OK?

 

WR: Maybe...holding out hope for Nicks. Not as concerned about the WRs as some of you: shit rolls downhill, and with the WRs relying on the QB, who's relying on the Oline, that position's pretty much at the base.

 

Hope this isn't too convoluted.

[boohyah]

It looks like Coughlin has thoughts about switching Beatty and Pugh. That might work.

[boohyah]

I though Cordle did a good job. I'd also resign Boothe because he's versatile and cheap.He can cover center and guard.

[Herc]

there isn't much i disagree with here. we are stuck with kiwi another year before we can cut him though and im with you on baas as a june 1st cut. it's not easy to find centers but he doesn't see the field enough to deal with paying that much for mediocre play

[CrazedDogs]

Kiwi was a bum for the first 12 games, but I thought he came on in the last quarter of the season. Wonder if he got put on notice, because he actually had some fire out there, I saw him tossing a few guys around.

 

And Tuck was good all season, he just had better luck at the end of the year. Best season Tucks had in a while, and probably no coincidence that its also been his healthiest season in a while.

[CrazedDogs]

fishgut, good post btw, wish I had time to really respond to everything here. I mostly agree, lots of good thoughts that I hope the Giants brass share.

[Herc]

yeah in a way it's good that we have to give kiwi another year. i'd like one more look at him before i make up my mind about him

[CrazedDogs]

yeah in a way it's good that we have to give kiwi another year. i'd like one more look at him before i make up my mind about him

 

I agree, he's been moved around so much. Its kind of a shame he never got a chance to play in a 3-4, he did well at linebacker just so long as the Giants were playing 3-4 concepts.... i.e., no pass coverage, just as a stand up rusher or eating up blockers.

[TrashTalker92]

I though Cordle did a good job. I'd also resign Boothe because he's versatile and cheap.He can cover center and guard.

 

Great Point .. just like Pugh.. they can play other positions. provide breathing room when injury hits. . but of cause i would want a player that is a monster in one position than a so-so player that's ok in every position..

 

I'm also glad we're not as high in the draft.. would be hit a little harder by the cap.... not saying that we wouldn't trade down.. but the last time the giants ever traded a first rounder was going up for Eli... and that's about 9 years ago.

[Sephiroth]

Great post and not a lot I'd disagree with here. I think you can get Tuck on the cheap... say, 3 years, 13 mil. I think a guy like that realizes there's a lot more Subway commercials in the Big Apple than there are in Charlotte.

 

I don't know that I'd keep Joseph. You drafted Hankins, you've got Jenkins locked up for another year... there's your two starters. I think Patterson can be had on the cheap. Joseph is going to command a bigger salary than he's really worth... I see a similar situation to Barry Cofield, where he was definitely a good player but not "top-5 salary at his position" good. If worse comes to worst, you can re-sign Rogers and he'll give you a decent 8 games.

 

I'd rather spend the money on Beason. I don't care how bad his coverage is... before he showed up, when was the last time you saw a Giants linebacker shed a block to make a tackle? Maybe Antonio Pierce against Green Bay in 07?

 

Overall though, I'd be more than happy if the Giants ended up going with the fishgut plan.

[fishgutmartyr]

I though Cordle did a good job. I'd also resign Boothe because he's versatile and cheap.He can cover center and guard.

 

I don't have a problem with Boothe, either. But he's 32, and I'm not sure how long his playing level will last. He can't afford to have too much of a drop-off.

 

there isn't much i disagree with here. we are stuck with kiwi another year before we can cut him though and im with you on baas as a june 1st cut. it's not easy to find centers but he doesn't see the field enough to deal with paying that much for mediocre play

 

According to this, we'd save 1.8 million cutting Kiwi. http://overthecap.com/cap.php?Name=Mathias%20Kiwanuka&Position=43OLB&Team=Giants

 

But we'd still be paying out 5 million in dead money, so it might be ok to keep him if we don't keep Tuck.

[Herc]

right, that ratio isn't worth it. you take a hit like that for a bad player you really want to get rid of.

 

if we wait a year the dead money is 2.6 mil and the cap savings is 4.8.

 

 

i'll just copy and paste what i said in a similar thread a month ago, i was probably angrier and more emotional than i am about it now though:

 

 

 

try to sign joseph unless he's too expensive. try to sign beason unless he wants too many years. sign stevie brown who will be cheap. keep pascoe, mcbride and mundy. the rest can go but knowing these front office clowns they'll probably bring back all 3 o-linemen. i can live with boothe and thomas being brought back for cheap but tell thomas to keep his mouth shut next season.

 

andre brown might've played himself into a nice contract. never sign veteran rbs. he was one of my favorites and i wish him the best.

 

eli obviously needs to restructure. i like rolle and cutting him costs 2 mil but i don't think it makes a ton of sense to keep him if we are tearing the whole thing down (which i think we should) and we'll gain back 7 mil. i doubt management/coaching wants to tear it all down though so they will probably restructure which i'm fine with, he's a good player and a team leader we can be proud of

 

we're stuck with kiwi. his dead money would be over 5 mil and we'd only save a little under 2 mil. cut him next year

 

cut myers (+3.25 mil), webster (+1 mil), baas after june 1st (+5 mil), brewer (750k), robinson (650k, 750k). snee should do the right thing by grandpa and retire but if he exercises that option then cut him (+7 mil). that's 1/5th of the likely cap number next year right there

 

tender paysinger. don't tender herzlich, hynoski or cordle.

 

extend prince. im sick of letting our top players go into their walk year. it's a fucking joke, no other teams do this with their #1 picks who produce for them. on the other side of the coin, let JPP earn his money next year. he has a vested option after that anway, no rush.

[Sephiroth]

 

sign stevie brown who will be cheap.

 

 

 

 

I think people are in for a very rude awakening with Stevie Brown.

 

The picks were awesome, but those don't come along every day... and aside from the picks, he was a below-average player, and that was BEFORE the injury. I hope I'm wrong but I'm not holding my breath on that guy.

[Bigblue25]

 

I think people are in for a very rude awakening with Stevie Brown.

 

The picks were awesome, but those don't come along every day... and aside from the picks, he was a below-average player, and that was BEFORE the injury. I hope I'm wrong but I'm not holding my breath on that guy.

He got burnt deep or got an interception, there was no in between.

[Herc]

everybody gets beat deep in today's NFL which is why being a ballhawk is more important than ever. he was improving against the run too.

 

if he had another 10 takeaway season he'd be out of our price range but coming off an ACL with only a one year track record makes him dirt cheap. we're in great shape at safety if we retain him and rolle

[RandolphScott]

I'm stealing the Hamlet line.

[Bigblue25]

everybody gets beat deep in today's NFL which is why being a ballhawk is more important than ever. he was improving against the run too.

 

if he had another 10 takeaway season he'd be out of our price range but coming off an ACL with only a one year track record makes him dirt cheap. we're in great shape at safety if we retain him and rolle

I liked the Cooper Taylor pick last year. Always injured and looked awful when he wasn't.

[Herc]

i didn't know who he was before we drafted him but i saw a lot of positive press on that pick too

[Bigblue25]

i didn't know who he was before we drafted him but i saw a lot of positive press on that pick too

Coming out there was a injury risk for him. Maybe we see something next year.

[fishgutmartyr]

Overall though, I'd be more than happy if the Giants ended up going with the fishgut plan.

Well, thanks; but they pretty much did this with the oline in 2004-2005. I'm just pointing out their own strategy. The difference is we don't have to deal with a Pettigout, and we won't draft/trade a QB--so we'll be drafting with more picks over the next two years.

 

Just pray we have an off-season like 2005.

[Sephiroth]

I liked the Cooper Taylor pick last year. Always injured and looked awful when he wasn't.

 

LOL. Yep, pretty much.

[Allstarjim]

Nodding my head at most of this. Except for Kiwi, which has already been explored. We need to keep him. And, I don't think that's a bad thing. Perhaps I didn't get a good eval on him, and I definitely didn't analyze his play with a microscope, but after the season I came away with a fairly positive assessment of him. But most other fans felt the opposite, so I could just be wrong.

 

I wanted to touch on Andre Brown, because after the O-line and perhaps defensive end, I think this is the most important position the Giants need to address, and one of the easier ones to screw up as well. Personally, I think we need a complete overhaul of the position. I would not re-sign Andre Brown. Like you, I like him. But he simply doesn't string enough games together in a row before having to sit with some kind of injury. I wouldn't even bring him back as a backup. We can't even count on David Wilson, either. The Giants probably need to go to the bargain bin here, but that doesn't mean there isn't quality out there. First, I would use a 3rd rounder (or maybe a 4th), on a thick-legged, tough yards-getting, running back. I'm a FSU homer (and what a great season), but there are projections that James Wilder Jr will be a 4th or 5th rounder. He's a tough runner with some speed, has the NFL makeup to run effectively between the tackles, and could make an immediate impact. I think he will not last until the 4th round. Carlos Hyde from Ohio State also would be a good pick, who might go a little higher.

 

As for free agency, look at what Donald Brown did in Indianapolis. This year, he finally put it all together. Was he just playing for a contract, though? Still, I was impressed every time I saw him play this season, he should get an award for most improved. I also think James Starks would be a modest purchase but one that could stabilize the position for our team. Starks does everything pretty good. And really, that's what this team needs. You give me Starks, the rook in Wilder Jr., maybe bring back Hillis, and Cox as the 4th guy, then you cross your fingers with David Wilson, probably is going on PUP at the beginning of next year anyway. If he comes back, you have turned the position into a strength with veteran leadership AND talented youth.

 

Tight end is also a big issue. And we've talked about it before, but wouldn't Scott Chandler be a perfect fit? He was briefly with the Giants in 2010, and boy did they give up on him too soon. Pitta is also another guy I mentioned that I think would be a good player that would fit with this team well. The Giants definitely need a better option at tight end. Since we still don't know anything about Robinson, except he obviously needed two redshirt seasons in the NFL (so far), we can't expect anything from him, either. A lot of Giants' fans are enamored with Jace Amaro from Texas Tech. I am not one of them. I've seen some of his film, and he's ok, but to me, he's a mid-round talent who won't make a significant impact early, at least from my first impressions of him. I think we go to free agency and try to get a veteran, here, and hopefully Reese will devote a little more money this time around to get someone of better quality.

[Bigblue25]

Buffalo extended Chandler last year. I want us to draft a TE has I'm not real thrilled about the FA options. C.J Fiedorowicz from Iowa is pretty much a Chandler clone. I think a second rounder.

 

 

 

[Allstarjim]

I like it Bigblue. Looks like a football player to me. I don't know about using a 2nd on TE, but one thing is for sure, the Giants need a lot of help on the offensive side of the ball in this draft. He looks to be one of those guys that even when he is covered, he's open, because he's so big and strong. I'm in.

 

CBS has him right now as the 5th ranked TE on their board. Hard to believe that 5 tight ends will go in the first two rounds. I think the Giants third rounder is at pick # 76. He could be a steal there.

[Bigblue25]

I don't think we resign Joseph and drafted Hankins to fill that 1 tech role. We haven't really had a true 3tech DT under Fewell and I think we draft one this year. I have us taken Ra'shede Hageman in the 1st. The future of the dline would be pretty good with JPP,Hageman,Hankins and Moore