Who remembers the Gallery vs Eli threads back in 2004??

[BleedinBlue]

Yeah, he really wasn't at all. I wanted Sean Taylor....who knows, he might not have been killed had he been a Giant...not sure where his home was, though or if it was an offseason home he would have been at anyway....

 

His home was in Florida if I remember rightly....near Miami where he was born, went to high school, and played in college. More than likely, he would've been there no matter what team drafted him. On the other hand, he wasn't playing at the time because he was injured and maybe if the Redskins had a better defense......nahh, it would be awfully hard to connect the dots and blame it on the team he was on. It was just before Christmas if I remember, so it would have been during the football season. Poor bastard, shot in the leg that clipped the femural artery and basically bled to death. He was a helluva player though. Far better than Gallery panned out to be.

[Nas]

His home was in Florida if I remember rightly....near Miami where he was born, went to high school, and played in college. More than likely, he would've been there no matter what team drafted him. On the other hand, he wasn't playing at the time because he was injured and maybe if the Redskins had a better defense......nahh, it would be awfully hard to connect the dots and blame it on the team he was on. It was just before Christmas if I remember, so it would have been during the football season. Poor bastard, shot in the leg that clipped the femural artery and basically bled to death. He was a helluva player though. Far better than Gallery panned out to be.

 

who knows I think everything that happens is directly affecting what happens after it meaning had the Giants drafted him he would have not died.. who knows.

[gmenroc]

Eh, water under the bridge, but I wanted Gallery. I thought Collins still had a year or two left where he could've succeeded with additional protection. I'm glad we went the way we did, but I'll still say that I think we overpaid when you consider we could've gotten Roethlisberger without giving up any draft picks.

 

I think Eli is definitely better than Ben. I do. But the real debate is whether he's all those extra picks better...another season like last and yeah, the chips will be in and all debate will cease for me. The only reason it exists now is that I think that Ben could have won two superbowls with us in the same time.

[BleedinBlue]

Eh, water under the bridge, but I wanted Gallery. I thought Collins still had a year or two left where he could've succeeded with additional protection. I'm glad we went the way we did, but I'll still say that I think we overpaid when you consider we could've gotten Roethlisberger without giving up any draft picks.

 

I think Eli is definitely better than Ben. I do. But the real debate is whether he's all those extra picks better...another season like last and yeah, the chips will be in and all debate will cease for me. The only reason it exists now is that I think that Ben could have won two superbowls with us in the same time.

 

With the picks we gave up for Eli, the Chargers took Kicker Nate Kaeding with our 3rd, who was a very accurate kicker, but also had a tendancy to miss field goals in big games. He tore his anterior cruciate ligament last year probably ending his career. The Chargers took OLB Shawne Merriman with the Giants first round pick the following year and he was a very solid player with off-the-field issues (battery and false imprisonment of Tila Tequila). After several pro bowl appearances and a record sack year, he's missed a lot of time the last couple of seasons with his Achilles tendon that keeps acting up. We might have missed out on Merriman, but we snagged Webster, Tuck, and Jacobs with limited draft picks so it's kind of hard to conclude that we ended up with a lost draft year because of the trade for Eli. Especially considering Eli and those three helped a lot in giving the team a couple of Super Bowl rings.

 

So yeah, we gave up a lot. I don't believe the Giants would've taken a kicker in the 3rd round the way San Diego did with our 3rd pick, so no telling who we would have taken.

 

What's kind of ironic is that after giving up the draft picks, the Giants were still able to snag Snee in the second round after reeling in Eli and Snee ended up being far better on the offensive line than Gallery.

[GorillaNJ]

Gallery's fate might have been different coming up in the Big Blue Offensive line system too... he was the big looser in that draft stuck in Oakland instead of San Diego or NYC... I was all about Gallery or Big Ben. After seeing Eli come down Broadway twice holding the Lombardi Trophy I can say beyond any doubt I was wrong.

[gmenroc]

So yeah, we gave up a lot. I don't believe the Giants would've taken a kicker in the 3rd round the way San Diego did with our 3rd pick, so no telling who we would have taken.

 

I think that the extra picks would've only made us better than we've been. I agree, we wouldn't have gone for a kicker that high. We may not have popped on Merriman either. I guess the mindset is that given the Giants scouting and drafting, both pretty well by league's standards, that there could have been more talent here surrounding Ben than there was surrounding Eli. Again, another season like last and all debate will end.

[CrazedDogs]

I think Eli is definitely better than Ben. I do. But the real debate is whether he's all those extra picks better...another season like last and yeah, the chips will be in and all debate will cease for me. The only reason it exists now is that I think that Ben could have won two superbowls with us in the same time.

 

Yeah, I think if we're talking strictly between the lines, Big Ben + extra picks >= Eli without the picks....

 

...but Big Ben has been fortunate to play in a city that treats football like a religion, and their QB a diety. I would bet almost anything that numerous incidents have been swept under the rug in Pittsburgh that would have been national news had Big Ben been the NY Giants QB instead. I bet he'd already have been rung up on rape charges had he been the Giants pick.

[gmenroc]

Yeah, I think if we're talking strictly between the lines, Big Ben + extra picks >= Eli without the picks....

 

...but Big Ben has been fortunate to play in a city that treats football like a religion, and their QB a diety. I would bet almost anything that numerous incidents have been swept under the rug in Pittsburgh that would have been national news had Big Ben been the NY Giants QB instead. I bet he'd already have been rung up on rape charges had he been the Giants pick.

 

Yes, I was looking at it from a draft perspective, not necessarily from hindsight.

 

Hindsight would afford consideration not only off the field issues, but injury issues as well. Whereas Ben has found trouble off the field, he's also been dinged up over the years, and moreso as of late. Eli has had no issues off the field and has been the model of consistency as far as being able to line up on Sundays. Whether the Giants had information on whether or not Ben was a model citizen or not or whether the Giants had info on whether Ben would be injury prone...who really knows. But I think that it all points to the fact that the Giants made the right decision. But the nail in the coffin, for me anyhow, will be one more season like Eli had last year.

[TrashTalker92]

Yeah. I was so high on the first 4 picks during that 2004 draft it was insane. I also wanted Gallery, I believe Collins had another 2 years left and the giants wasn't far from the Super Bowl lost of 2001. I wanted gallery first then the WR Fitz then maybe QB Eli and last rivers.

 

O'well, I'm happy with Eli when I first saw him and in and threw that pass to....

[Nas]

Yes, I was looking at it from a draft perspective, not necessarily from hindsight.

 

Hindsight would afford consideration not only off the field issues, but injury issues as well. Whereas Ben has found trouble off the field, he's also been dinged up over the years, and moreso as of late. Eli has had no issues off the field and has been the model of consistency as far as being able to line up on Sundays. Whether the Giants had information on whether or not Ben was a model citizen or not or whether the Giants had info on whether Ben would be injury prone...who really knows. But I think that it all points to the fact that the Giants made the right decision. But the nail in the coffin, for me anyhow, will be one more season like Eli had last year.

 

I'm already satisfied with Eli. Unlike most here I'm not too crazy about Big Ben... I don't think he's that good and I think he benefited from having a very good team to start with whereas we had to build our team. Eli's success and humility makes him perfect for NY.. I love the dude.

[BleedinBlue]

Can you imagine the horror if Eli never cut it in an NFL game? Ernie's name would stand alongside Walter O'Malley.....whose news of his death brought loud cheers all through NYC and guys went out and celebrated with drinking til the bars closed.

[Mr. P]

Can you imagine the horror if Eli never cut it in an NFL game? Ernie's name would stand alongside Walter O'Malley.....whose news of his death brought loud cheers all through NYC and guys went out and celebrated with drinking til the bars closed.

 

Ernie wagered his legacy on Eli Manning. And WON.

[BleedinBlue]

Ernie wagered his legacy on Eli Manning. And WON.

 

He sure did!

 

Imagine if Eli really sucked and Rivers had 2 superbowl rings and had a reputation for being fearless when the game was on the line and usually won the toughest games. We'd be the laughing stock of the country.

 

Regardless....it's all history and Ernie made the right call.

[TrashTalker92]

I wonder what good old Ernie is doing right now.. Probably get his dick wet very time Eli makes a come from behind win.....

 

 

 

[TrashTalker92]

I wonder what good old Ernie is doing right now.. Probably get his dick wet very time Eli makes a come from behind win.....

 

Ummm it sounds kinda gay......

[Allstarjim]

Don't tell AllstarJim that... We got into a headed debate over Phillips Rivers. At the end I told him I would take Jeff Smoker over Phillips Rivers. Lets just say He did not care for that....

 

Haha, Nem... I remember that conversation. I remember thinking you were absolutely nuts with the stuff about Jeff Smoker. Hey, he did have two half-way decent seasons... in the Arena Football League!

 

I remember liking all three QB's, and thought they'd all be good. I had my biggest reservations about Eli, though. I preferred Rivers, then Roethlisberger, then Eli. That was based on me following the ACC more closely, seeing Rivers dominate in his bowl games, and his accuracy being so good.

 

Roethlisberger I saw play in person when Miami of Ohio played UCF in Orlando. Roethlisberger was a man amongst boys out there. They would go for it on 4th down repeatedly and make it... 4th and long, too.

 

Big Ben has proven himself to be a great pick for the Steelers... don't know what Nas is thinking when he says he doesn't think he's that good. Watch some Steelers' games, Nas. He might be a douche and possible rapist, I don't know, but the guy is a great QB, that's without question.

 

I remember where I was in the big debate, though. I desperately wanted the Giants to draft Sean Taylor with the 4th pick. The Redskins took him a pick later, and I was watching that draft with my best friend that day, who mocked me at the time when his team (he's a huge 'Skins fan), got the player I wanted and we got my least favorite QB out of the 3. But I told him then... we'll see how it works out a few years from now. It's kind of sad it worked out the way it did with Taylor getting murdered. But in hindsight, he definitely celebrated a bit too soon (even though I would've done the same).

 

For the record, Rivers, even though he's the least accomplished, could've taken the Chargers to the Super Bowl if not for his torn ACL that he tried to play on in the AFC championship game in '07 against the Pats. The guy has a 14-2 season, a 13-3 season, an 11-5 season, and the worst the Chargers have finished with him as the starter was 8-8, just like Eli. He's also gone to 4 Pro Bowls and led the NFL in passing. I think Rivers, out of the three QB's, has had the worst luck in terms of the team he went to, and for that, we have Archie Manning to thank and to be forever grateful to. I mean, those Chargers teams with Rivers, Tomlinson, Gates, and Vincent Jackson couldn't get anywhere? That's because of Marty Schottenheimer and now Norv Turner. Two of the most inexplicable head coaches in football. You have a ferrari in the garage but you're going to drive a nice, reliable honda civic. That's how they've coached.... way too conservatively.

 

Fun trip down memory lane... and yeah, Eli was the right choice, which is glaringly obvious at this point. I will say that if there was a re-draft knowing what we know now, there would still probably be controversy at who goes first, Ben or Eli... but clearly Eli was right for NY.

 

In that top 5 though Ben would be in there, Larry Fitz would still be in there, Rivers would be in there, and Vince Wilfork would be in there (taken much later in the first round. And Steven Jackson would be in the top 10, and I would still have Taylor in there because if he hadn't have been shot, we're probably talking about him as an elite safety in the NFL today. Karlos Dansby would be up there, in the top 10 probably (first pick of the 2nd round). Jonathan Vilma... a lot of talent in that '04 draft.

 

What's funny is that Buffalo had two picks in the first round that year, and took Lee Evans (13th) and J.P. Losman. (22nd). In between those two picks, the following players were drafted: Tommie Harris, Michael Clayton, Shawn Andrews, D.J. Williams, Will Smith, Vernon Carey, Kenechi Udeze, and Vince Wilfork. You can make a strong case that any of those guys would've been a better pick than Evans, lol.

 

After Losman, Steven Jackson was taken 2 picks later, Jason Babin a little after that. Ahmad Carrol, Ben Watson... solid NFL players. What a complete failure of a draft for Buffalo.

[TrashTalker92]

Jim, nice write up.

 

I think both Eli and rivers are both great but I give the edge to Eli.

 

When both was drafted. Here's a list that they had to work with during their first few years.

 

Eli:

RB: tiki - great RB one of the top during That time.

TE: shockey - was a top TE and had a lot of fire but a cry baby at times.

WR: toomer & plex - great one two punch but other than them no one else.

O-Line : was decent rank probably mid of the pack during that time(before the 2008).

 

Rivers.

RB: LaT - HOF RB. Thank you for winning me my first fantasy football league!

TE: Gate - the BEST TE during that time and still rank top 5

WR: V.Jackson - not as great as toomer during that time but there were a few other guys that was decent.

O-Line: was decent as well if I remember correctly.

 

River had a elite edge as far as weapons to work with. Also our division is harder. So matching wins is hard

[Allstarjim]

Oh no doubt, TT. Do it all over again and I'm taking Eli first. Eli was definitely the right guy to lead the Giants. I didn't mean to compare the two in such a way that I meant Rivers would've been a better pick than Eli. I was definitely wrong in who would be the right guy for NY. I was just commenting on the ineptitude of Schottenheimer and Turner, that they couldn't get more out of those teams with Rivers. You put a Holmgren or a Bill Walsh type in San Diego and they would've won at least an AFC Championship with Rivers there. I suppose I was defending my pre-draft opinion of Rivers. He's the only one of the 3 without a ring, but I don't think he was a bad pick for San Diego. He's a damn good QB, a franchise QB. He needs an offensive line, though, something he didn't have last year, and a coach that has more of a killer instinct. They unloaded Schottenheimer because he could never get over the hump in the playoffs... coached way too conservatively, and then hired another way too conservative coach! Mind boggling, really.

 

Had we ended up with any of the three guys, I think we would've been pretty well off. But we just so happened to get Eli and he was the right guy for us. And the greatest thing about Eli is that he can't be outworked, he's a coach on the field, and he plays his best when the chips are down. The other two guys have their good attributes, but for my money, Eli has the best leadership and intangibles of the three, or as Ernie would say, "He's got IT."

[JackStroud]

anyone who tries to postulate how River or Ben would have done in NY is just rubbish........we will never know and all three are great QBs

 

The other two have had more regular season success

[Allstarjim]

anyone who tries to postulate how River or Ben would have done in NY is just rubbish........we will never know and all three are great QBs

 

The other two have had more regular season success

 

Well, I don't agree. How do you think Roethlisberger's off-the-field stuff would've played in the NY media? The went bat-shit crazy just because Eli said he considers himself a top-5 QB. LOL.

 

As for Rivers, he has a different personality, more intense. You see a wide range of emotions when you watch Rivers. In NY, that probably isn't the best kind of personality. Not to say he's thin-skinned, or anything. But it could result in a distraction to the team.

 

Eli has been perfect for NY... a quiet leader, who is the first in the office and last to leave, coaches his receivers up, plays every game, leads by example. You don't have to worry about off-the-field stuff. Don't have to worry about him blowing up on the field or at a coach. He's just even-keeled. Boring. But a silent assassin. That's just what this team needed. He's grown into a real leader, and he did it his way, not how others thought he should be like. I respect that a lot.

[CrazedDogs]

Well, I don't agree. How do you think Roethlisberger's off-the-field stuff would've played in the NY media? The went bat-shit crazy just because Eli said he considers himself a top-5 QB. LOL.

 

As for Rivers, he has a different personality, more intense. You see a wide range of emotions when you watch Rivers. In NY, that probably isn't the best kind of personality. Not to say he's thin-skinned, or anything. But it could result in a distraction to the team.

 

Eli has been perfect for NY... a quiet leader, who is the first in the office and last to leave, coaches his receivers up, plays every game, leads by example. You don't have to worry about off-the-field stuff. Don't have to worry about him blowing up on the field or at a coach. He's just even-keeled. Boring. But a silent assassin. That's just what this team needed. He's grown into a real leader, and he did it his way, not how others thought he should be like. I respect that a lot.

 

Well said.

 

I remember hearing some disturbing stuff from U of M (Ohio) students back around the time Roethlisberger was drafted (its not too far from where I live, lots of Miami grads around here). Lets just say that the 'Rapelisberger' nickname didn't start after his NFL career. Wouldn't surprise me a bit if the Giants and other NFL teams knew it going into the draft, because it seemed like everyone at Miami (Ohio) knew his MO.