Opinion's from Hound / Pizan and Money !!!!

[Martin]

I have been reading your posts and it seems that you 3 spend a good

deal of time on knowing the college market.

 

Its very clear that the Giants have a big weakness at DT more than

any other area on the team. As of today we have:

 

Joseph, Robbins, Ducket and Seawright. as i said very weak.

 

Joseph is inconsistant / Robbins had a weight problem and TC problem Unkown status at this point.

Ducket is learning and is backup/ Seawright is backup and unkown status

 

My question to all 3 is with the draft saturday what DT would you think

the Giants are realistic in getting and would your choice be able to

contribute in Sept. or would it be a 1 to 2 year learning curve.

 

Now depending on that opinion if your choice could not contribute

what FA player right now would your choice be to sign and why.

 

 

You were appointed the GM's position and you need to fix this problem

so that the giants wont have a big whole in the middle for the up coming season.

 

We welcome your response!!

 

thanks

[HOUND]

We've had pretty good DT discussion in the thread Armstead started. I'll try not to be repetitive.

 

Forget about Bunkley and Ngata. Without a trade up or an arrest in the next day or so they're off the board.

 

Gabe Watson likely will be the highest rated DT when we pick, although the chance exists he could be gone too. Watson is also a perceived reach by us at 25 based on his less than stellar conditioning and work habits. I think Watson has the potential to be a Chester McGlockton type of space eater in the middle. I'm personally a big fan of huge guys at DT even if they are overweight, although in Watson's case he takes far too many plays off. Money is definitely the expert here as he's seen Gabe play. I originally was bitterly opposed to taking Watson in round 1. I still think it's a reach on our part and a case of drafting solely for need. There is no doubt in my mind we'll have other quality and safer options available at 25 but I'll also admit that the prospect of taking Watson at 25 doesn't upset me as much as it used to. Watson won't be there at 56 so if we want him we have to take him in the first round. He could make an impact for us this year. I can't see him hurting our rsuh defense! However in discussing any Defensive Tackle prospect the expectation should never be for the rookie season. DT is a tough position to learn at the pro level. It takes some development. I think you can look at Joseph as a good example of this. He played some solid ball for us last season after being inconsistent his first few seasons. That being the case I likely would pursue a veteran free agent to add to the roster. Brenston Buckner would be a good mentor. Grady Jackson would likely perform better.

 

I thin Rod Wright of Texas is an interesting prospect. At 6'6" he has the size, although I'd like to see more weight on his 310 pound frame. Like Watson he has shown the ability to dominate against top level competition. Also like Watson he's horribly inconsistent. He didn't have the Senior season most Scouts woud've liked. He earned Big 12 Defensive Freshman of the Year honors and started 44 of 49 games. That's impressive considering the strength of the Texas program. However he only totaled 5.5 sacks his final 2 seasons after ringing up 7.5 in his sophomore campaign. The on/off motor is his biggest flaw. He comes from a football family (Uncle and cousin both played in the NFL) and has good field smarts. His senior season will cause his draft stock to drop, which some of you may recall was exactly what happened to William Joseph.

 

I also like Babatunde Oshinowo, a 300+ pound run plugger from Stanford. I don't think he's got nearly enough credit on most draft sites. Although he isn't the best fit for our defense. he really projects best as a nose tackle in a 3-4.

 

To answer your main question ... what would I do, if I'm Giants GM....

 

I'd likely pass on Gabe Watson at 25. I think there will be more attractive options. I'd happily take OT Eric Winston from Miami in that slot. I'd take CB Cromartie too although his stock is skyrocketing. I'm still a huge fan of D'Meco Ryans. It's hard to find something to dislike about the kid, although it's tough to justify taking him with his best position being likely manned for the next two seasons. I tend to think Wright is available in round 2 and I think he's a great value at that slot. Many feel Calude Wroten won't be available when we pick at 56. I'm higher on Wright than I am on Wroten. But I'd select either one in round 2 with my preference being the Texas Longhorn. I'll be surprised if neither one is available so if you're looking for where I'd find my DT, my strategy would likely be in round 2.

 

Other names:

 

Dusty Dvoracek ... love his motor and effort but I'm not sure he physically matches up to be an everydown defender. I'd consider him in the 3rd but not before then. If we somehow don't have a DT by round 3 then I don't see how we can pass on him.

 

I'm not high on John McCargo of NC State. He's had the benefit of playing inside two excellent pass rushers (Lawson and Williams). It's made him appear much better than he is.

 

If you want a late round sleeper I'd recommend Anthony Montgomery of Minnesota. He's 6'5" and 315 lbs. He plays as if he's still elarning the game. He really came on his senior season and finished strong. He's got the prototype size you look for. He's also shown to be a solid run plugger which at this point is the greater need for the Giants.

[parlintm]

A few points I want to make:

 

1. There's no way that we will head into the third round w/o having drafted a DT. That either means Watson at 25 or one of the aforementioned players at 56.

 

2. I disagree slightly with Hound's statement that Watson is a reach at 25. He's either the pick or he isn't. If he works hard he will get onto the field and be productive. If he doesnt give a shit and takes training camp off he will never get onto the field with Tom Coughlin as a coach and therefore is not worth a pick at any spot. If you look up boom or bust in the dictionary you will see a picture of his fat ass.

 

3. I'm not opposed to the theory of drafting Watson in the first and then grabbing another DT in either the second or third. That way we get some solid competition and training camp should produce at least one serviceable DT.

[Money]

Although I remain extremely disappointed with the way Watson's career at Michigan turned out, the idea of the Giants drafting him has grown on me in recent weeks. After signing Arrington, I think the Giants should swing for the fences in the draft ... and selecting Watson constitutes that strategy, as he is the perfect example of a high-risk/high-reward pick.

 

Right now, our only defensive defeciency is DT. I like Joseph a lot and thought he was a force last year; his ability would be much more evident if he was playing next to another strong DT. Since the Giants need a 2-gap run stuffer to replace Clancy, keep blockers off of Pierce, and give the other DL better opportunities to make plays, Watson seems like a logical choice. Fans should understand that the Giants should have their eye on nose tackles types, because that is the role that Clancy and Norman Hand filled.

 

Obviously Watson's downside is considerable. He's lazy, immature, underachieving, etc. He's such a tantalizing pick because the talent is undeniably there, but he's simultaneously a horrifying pick because of the likelihood that he eats himself out of the league.

 

Fortunately for the Giants, their current LB Coach, Bill Sheridan, was Watson's position coach at Michigan for 3 years. If anyone has added insight into whether or not Watson is coachable and thus worthy of the investment, it's Coach Sheridan. Thus, I trust the organization to make the right decision.

 

If not Watson, here are some other lesser known DTs who would be good picks for the Giants:

 

John McCargo (2)

Babatunde Oshinowo (3)

Barry Cofield (3)

Le Kevin Smith (4)

Tommy Jackson (5)

[njsmalls]

If not Watson, here are some other lesser known DTs who would be good picks for the Giants:

 

John McCargo (2)

Babatunde Oshinowo (3)

Barry Cofield (3)

Le Kevin Smith (4)

Tommy Jackson (5)

 

I think we need two DTs...we should gamble on Watson and take McCargo (he'll be in the same situation on the Giants as he was at NC State) or Dvoracek...

 

Basically we need at least one that could start from day one...although really after Watson there isn't any.

[Martin]

Although I remain extremely disappointed with the way Watson's career at Michigan turned out, the idea of the Giants drafting him has grown on me in recent weeks. After signing Arrington, I think the Giants should swing for the fences in the draft ... and selecting Watson constitutes that strategy, as he is the perfect example of a high-risk/high-reward pick.

 

Right now, our only defensive defeciency is DT. I like Joseph a lot and thought he was a force last year; his ability would be much more evident if he was playing next to another strong DT. Since the Giants need a 2-gap run stuffer to replace Clancy, keep blockers off of Pierce, and give the other DL better opportunities to make plays, Watson seems like a logical choice. Fans should understand that the Giants should have their eye on nose tackles types, because that is the role that Clancy and Norman Hand filled.

 

Obviously Watson's downside is considerable. He's lazy, immature, underachieving, etc. He's such a tantalizing pick because the talent is undeniably there, but he's simultaneously a horrifying pick because of the likelihood that he eats himself out of the league.

 

Fortunately for the Giants, their current LB Coach, Bill Sheridan, was Watson's position coach at Michigan for 3 years. If anyone has added insight into whether or not Watson is coachable and thus worthy of the investment, it's Coach Sheridan. Thus, I trust the organization to make the right decision.

 

 

 

 

 

If not Watson, here are some other lesser known DTs who would be good picks for the Giants:

 

John McCargo (2)

Babatunde Oshinowo (3)

Barry Cofield (3)

Le Kevin Smith (4)

Tommy Jackson (5)

 

 

thanks for your reply!

 

What is scary is that you love Watson and hate him all in one.

Do you think that any of the top players you mention could start

or contribute right away?

 

WHat is your take on a FA pick for DT ?

 

I had read that Jackson failed physical and

Bruckner was considering retirement are there other

FA possibilities?

 

 

regards,

Martin

[HOUND]

I heard a radio interview with Buckner in which he said he'd likely retire if another team didn't sign him. That's hardly earthshattering taken at face value but looking at what he said it sounds as though he'd still like to play. I also think that if the Giants went after Buckner or Jackson they'd sign Buckner.

 

In regards to immediate starting ability in the rookie defensive tackle class, the only one I'd feel confident in getting immediate contributions from is Gabe Watson.

 

I don't understand why people defend McCargo by comparing his situation in college to how it would be if the Giants signed him. If the guy's stock is inflated because of the talent that surrounded him in college, he shouldn't get a free pass simply because we've got talent at the same positions. It makes far more sense to sign a guy who can excel on his own. What is the justification of drafting a guy who needs better players around him to succeed. Especially considering we have at the maximum, 2 more productive seasons from Strahan.

[HOUND]

A few points I want to make:

 

1. There's no way that we will head into the third round w/o having drafted a DT. That either means Watson at 25 or one of the aforementioned players at 56.

 

2. I disagree slightly with Hound's statement that Watson is a reach at 25. He's either the pick or he isn't. If he works hard he will get onto the field and be productive. If he doesnt give a shit and takes training camp off he will never get onto the field with Tom Coughlin as a coach and therefore is not worth a pick at any spot. If you look up boom or bust in the dictionary you will see a picture of his fat ass.

 

3. I'm not opposed to the theory of drafting Watson in the first and then grabbing another DT in either the second or third. That way we get some solid competition and training camp should produce at least one serviceable DT.

 

He's a reach because of the major risk involved in taking him in round 1. He's got a well documented conditioning problem. He's similar to Randy Moss in that he seems to play at a top level only part of the time and when he feels like it. Other times he takes plays off. If he wasn't lazy he'd be a top 15 pick and we wouldn't even have a shot at him. I totally agree that he's boom or bust. But I consider him a reach because of the risk involved in spending a first rounder on him. Now if he was somehow available in the 2nd I'd say he's an automatic pick for us. That's not gonna happen but I think you see the point I'm making.

[Barens]

Gabe Watson I don't necassarily see as boom or bust. I see a small chance that he'll be an excellant pro, and a good chance he'll be an average player to fill that need of a being space eater in the NFL for years to come. IMO, he will just be a volatile player, in that you never know what your going to get with him year in and year out. He might have something to prove going into his rookie season, play very well, and come in the following year and not live up to those same expectations.

 

All in all, I'm really against taking Watson at #25 if he's on the board, and I think he'll just be the type of player who's going to drive fans crazy.

[Martin]

Gabe Watson I don't necassarily see as boom or bust. I see a small chance that he'll be an excellant pro, and a good chance he'll be an average player to fill that need of a being space eater in the NFL for years to come. IMO, he will just be a volatile player, in that you never know what your going to get with him year in and year out. He might have something to prove going into his rookie season, play very well, and come in the following year and not live up to those same expectations.

 

All in all, I'm really against taking Watson at #25 if he's on the board, and I think he'll just be the type of player who's going to drive fans crazy.

 

 

consistancy in the NFL is very important !!

 

i think we would all love consistancy from our pick

[Money]

I heard a radio interview with Buckner in which he said he'd likely retire if another team didn't sign him. That's hardly earthshattering taken at face value but looking at what he said it sounds as though he'd still like to play. I also think that if the Giants went after Buckner or Jackson they'd sign Buckner.

 

In regards to immediate starting ability in the rookie defensive tackle class, the only one I'd feel confident in getting immediate contributions from is Gabe Watson.

 

I don't understand why people defend McCargo by comparing his situation in college to how it would be if the Giants signed him. If the guy's stock is inflated because of the talent that surrounded him in college, he shouldn't get a free pass simply because we've got talent at the same positions. It makes far more sense to sign a guy who can excel on his own. What is the justification of drafting a guy who needs better players around him to succeed. Especially considering we have at the maximum, 2 more productive seasons from Strahan.

 

I don't think it's fair to attribute McCargo's achievements to Williams and Lawson. It's entirely conceivable that McCargo was a big part of his teammates success as well.

[Money]

thanks for your reply!

 

What is scary is that you love Watson and hate him all in one.

Do you think that any of the top players you mention could start

or contribute right away?

 

WHat is your take on a FA pick for DT ?

 

I had read that Jackson failed physical and

Bruckner was considering retirement are there other

FA possibilities?

regards,

Martin

 

Aside from Jackson and Buckner -- neither of whom I'm particularly high on -- the FA market is all but dried up. I think that Babatunde Oshinowo of Stanford and Tommy Jackson of Auburn could be decent 2-down starters for us early on. Again, whatever DT that comes in will be asked to play 2-gap and occupy blockers in running situations.

[Barens]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/prospects?rank_type=13

 

Talk about a DT who plays with passion, this footage of Dusty Dvoracek should get some fans in his corner. The guy is an animal.

Edited April 27, 2006 by Barens

[Money]

Is anyone else having trouble with those videos from Yahoo? Every time I click on one, I see some stupid Hummer commercial, followed by my browser clicking a bunch of times, and then the Hummer commercial showing again.

 

In other words, Yahoo is gay.

[Frank_Grimes]

Is anyone else having trouble with those videos from Yahoo? Every time I click on one, I see some stupid Hummer commercial, followed by my browser clicking a bunch of times, and then the Hummer commercial showing again.

 

In other words, Yahoo is gay.

 

 

Who would have ever guessed that "Lindsay Lohan-Britney Spears XXX video" e-mail was just a virus?

[HOUND]

Is anyone else having trouble with those videos from Yahoo? Every time I click on one, I see some stupid Hummer commercial, followed by my browser clicking a bunch of times, and then the Hummer commercial showing again.

 

In other words, Yahoo is gay.

 

 

Whoa ... wait a minute. I can get a hummer simply by clicking on yahoo?

 

I'll be right back.

[njsmalls]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/prospects?rank_type=13

 

Talk about a DT who plays with passion, this footage of Dusty Dvoracek should get some fans in his corner. The guy is an animal.

I already was high on that guy! Shit, he'll be a kick ass 3rd round pick!

[HOUND]

I don't think it's fair to attribute McCargo's achievements to Williams and Lawson. It's entirely conceivable that McCargo was a big part of his teammates success as well.

 

Just my .02 but having seen a bunch of NC State games live I can tell you that McCargo did very little to stand out when I saw him. Having Lawson and Williams on either side gave him much more opprotunity to shine than the other way around. I'm not high on the guy.

[gateb]

Aside from Jackson and Buckner -- neither of whom I'm particularly high on -- the FA market is all but dried up. I think that Babatunde Oshinowo of Stanford and Tommy Jackson of Auburn could be decent 2-down starters for us early on. Again, whatever DT that comes in will be asked to play 2-gap and occupy blockers in running situations.

Speaking of the FA market... where do you think Law is going and for how much? I just remembered that he's still available and as of now haven't heard many rumors involving him.

[HOUND]

I think the Patriots re-sign him

[Money]

I think the Patriots re-sign him

 

Hound, are you back for the draft-day chat this year?

[Pizan]

I have been reading your posts and it seems that you 3 spend a good

deal of time on knowing the college market.

 

Its very clear that the Giants have a big weakness at DT more than

any other area on the team. As of today we have:

 

Joseph, Robbins, Ducket and Seawright. as i said very weak.

 

Joseph is inconsistant / Robbins had a weight problem and TC problem Unkown status at this point.

Ducket is learning and is backup/ Seawright is backup and unkown status

 

My question to all 3 is with the draft saturday what DT would you think

the Giants are realistic in getting and would your choice be able to

contribute in Sept. or would it be a 1 to 2 year learning curve.

 

Now depending on that opinion if your choice could not contribute

what FA player right now would your choice be to sign and why.

You were appointed the GM's position and you need to fix this problem

so that the giants wont have a big whole in the middle for the up coming season.

 

We welcome your response!!

 

thanks

 

 

Martin, I would tend to agree with the majority of what Money said. I think right now the best choice is Gabe Watson in the first. Although his work ethic scares the shit out of me, I think he has the best potential out of anyone who has the chance to be there at #25. Like Money said we are in position to "swing for the fences" and Watson is the epitome of that. With that said even if Watson is drafted, I could see us drafting another DT at some point during the draft or signing a FA.

 

In regards to Jackson or any other free agent DT, I think that depends on the draft. Although likely Its not a given that Gabe Watson is available at 25. We could also decide to go a different direction when we do draft at 25 or when we draft a DT. If that happens to be the case Jackson would be a good choice to play as our nose tackle. I would feel more comfortable with him then Buckner even if Jackson failed a physical.

 

Now Jackson would be nice to have but unless Strahan and Toomer restructure, which was being reported a week or so ago, we will have trouble signing him. We are currently around 3 million in available cap space and still would like to sign a vet. QB, possibly a WR like Proehl, as well as signing our draft choices. So getting a 2 gap tackle at some point in the draft should be a focal point like Money said.

 

If we decide to go WR in the 1st or if the oppotunity presents itself and we trade down while missing out on Watson, I dont think we are doomed or anything like that. Wroten, Wright, or Dvoracek in the 2nd would help, I think each can contribute if called upon. There is also second day prospects that would be nice selections if we decided to go with 2 tackles in the draft. 4th round prospects like Le Kevin Smith and Montavious Stanley, 5th round prospects like Domata Peko, Tommy Jackson, or Steve Fifita.

[Pizan]

WHat is your take on a FA pick for DT ?

 

I had read that Jackson failed physical and

Bruckner was considering retirement are there other

FA possibilities?

regards,

Martin

 

 

Brandon Noble and Jason Fisk could be other options for nose tackle although not as good as Jackson or Buckner.

[Money]

Pizan, do you have AIM?

[Pizan]

I don't understand why people defend McCargo by comparing his situation in college to how it would be if the Giants signed him. If the guy's stock is inflated because of the talent that surrounded him in college, he shouldn't get a free pass simply because we've got talent at the same positions. It makes far more sense to sign a guy who can excel on his own. What is the justification of drafting a guy who needs better players around him to succeed. Especially considering we have at the maximum, 2 more productive seasons from Strahan.

 

 

I agree, Last year he played in seven games with 24 tackles, nine of which were tackles for loss and just 1 sack while playing next to the likes of Manny Lawson and Mario Williams. Those stats arent too encouraging, especially for someone touted as an early 2nd. Now im not saying his success was because of Mario and Manny but they sure as hell didnt struggle when he was out with a broken foot for 5 games. McCargo is maybe a third round prospect IMO. I dont evem think he is really that good and is really being over hyped for reasons that are beyond me.