Balloonknot Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Hell I mean we are all Giants fans here and we are all entitled to our opinions but WTF? statistics do not lie. Stats can be very Skewed to portray lots of half truths. Sure Philips and Rolle have been in on lots of tackles... But how many PD's to they each have. or how about a stat that doesn't show up like blown coverages or just getting plain beat... I have seen a lot of that this year out of both of them.. It may be scheme or it may be them. That I do not know. I am not a coach. I am not in on what plays and what coverages are called. All I know is what I see. And What I see is a lot of wide open receivers from them as well as the rest of the DB's. Now considering we lost 2 of our top 4 CB's for all or most of the season and a bunch behind them too I expect a bunch of poor play from the CB position. but we had our starting safeties pretty much all season and they played just as poor if not worse then the ravaged CB crew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmenroc Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Not if they play zone coverage. And what's worse if guys don't know their assignments. From and interview with Tuck right after Boley got hurt he said that his loss was the worse they had suffered. That's saying allot Boley the man directing traffic. not rolle not Phillips not grant. Whether they play zone or man, the secondary has to maintain coverage long enough for the pass rush to get home. Boley was the guy relaying the defensive calls and as such, had the responsibility to direct players where they needed to be if they weren't there already. So yeah, I could see Tuck's point. But the Tuck comment really has nothing to do with the Phillips/Rolle argument. Our safeties are serviceable, at the very least. I think that they're above average. Rolle's and Grant's flexibility in the secondary has probably helped this defense more than any casual fan would ever realize given the injuries to our LBs and CBs. KP has looked a bit slower than he did before his injury, but he still holds his own. None of our safeties are by any means dominant, ball hawking, head hunting, guys that opposing teams have to plan around. But there are far, far worse safeties in the league and there are far, far worse players on our very team at their respective positions than Rolle, Grant, or Phillips are at their's. As such, I'd argue that the play of these 3 have kept us in more games than what they've cost us. If you're simply stating that a better pass rush will hide poor coverages whether those coverages are man to man or zone or a combination of the two, than that's a no brainer and is simply stating the painfully obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firstnten Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Stats can be very Skewed to portray lots of half truths. Sure Philips and Rolle have been in on lots of tackles... But how many PD's to they each have. or how about a stat that doesn't show up like blown coverages or just getting plain beat... I have seen a lot of that this year out of both of them.. It may be scheme or it may be them. That I do not know. I am not a coach. I am not in on what plays and what coverages are called. All I know is what I see. And What I see is a lot of wide open receivers from them as well as the rest of the DB's. Now considering we lost 2 of our top 4 CB's for all or most of the season and a bunch behind them too I expect a bunch of poor play from the CB position. but we had our starting safeties pretty much all season and they played just as poor if not worse then the ravaged CB crew. Not to mention but you really can;t see the secondary 100% of the time on TV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueInCanada Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Not to mention but you really can;t see the secondary 100% of the time on TV. I would love if teams would release that coaching film that certain sports networks are allowed to get. Obviously it's never going to happen but would love to be able to see the game from all the angles and actually see what a coaches end up trying to show/teach to the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balloonknot Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Not to mention but you really can;t see the secondary 100% of the time on TV. I know, thats why I stated it that way I stated it. and that is I only know what I see... i wish I could get the all 22 footage to review the games... But the NFL won't release that shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firstnten Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Whether they play zone or man, the secondary has to maintain coverage long enough for the pass rush to get home. Boley was the guy relaying the defensive calls and as such, had the responsibility to direct players where they needed to be if they weren't there already. So yeah, I could see Tuck's point. But the Tuck comment really has nothing to do with the Phillips/Rolle argument. Our safeties are serviceable, at the very least. I think that they're above average. Rolle's and Grant's flexibility in the secondary has probably helped this defense more than any casual fan would ever realize given the injuries to our LBs and CBs. KP has looked a bit slower than he did before his injury, but he still holds his own. None of our safeties are by any means dominant, ball hawking, head hunting, guys that opposing teams have to plan around. But there are far, far worse safeties in the league and there are far, far worse players on our very team at their respective positions than Rolle, Grant, or Phillips are at their's. As such, I'd argue that the play of these 3 have kept us in more games than what they've cost us. If you're simply stating that a better pass rush will hide poor coverages whether those coverages are man to man or zone or a combination of the two, than that's a no brainer and is simply stating the painfully obvious. Yeah it is obvious. And I have seen these guy fall apart in zone coverage many times this year. Grant is a stop gap guy who was picked up because he fits that nickle LB position Fewell runs the "three safety look" he covers At the linebacker level, Grant is always involved in run fits, blitz packages or coverage of tight ends and running backs. he's not used as classic SS, and Had CC Brown accepted the offer by the Giants first I have doubts he would even be on the team. And Rolle is a dick, dectn player but a complete toolbag christ he just came out and says he now sees eye to eye with TC after they clinched the division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firstnten Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I know, thats why I stated it that way I stated it. and that is I only know what I see... i wish I could get the all 22 footage to review the games... But the NFL won't release that shit. Goto the home games you see it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balloonknot Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I have been to home games before. I know what you see. unfortunately I no longer live in the area to be able to go so I have to rely on the tv. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treehugger Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Stats lie like motherfuckers sometimes. Remember a year or two ago when we had a top 10 ranked D? It wasn't because we could stop anybody, it was because our special teams consistently gave the opposition a short field. We were ranked top 10 in yards/game and like 29th in points allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmenroc Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Yeah it is obvious. And I have seen these guy fall apart in zone coverage many times this year. Grant is a stop gap guy who was picked up because he fits that nickle LB position Fewell runs the "three safety look" he covers At the linebacker level, Grant is always involved in run fits, blitz packages or coverage of tight ends and running backs. he's not used as classic SS, and Had CC Brown accepted the offer by the Giants first I have doubts he would even be on the team. And Rolle is a dick, dectn player but a complete toolbag christ he just came out and says he now sees eye to eye with TC after they clinched the division. Zone is often predicated on pressure. There are too many holes in zone coverage that WRs, TEs, or RBs can sit down in or run through if pressure isn't obtained fairly quickly. Fewell's 3 safety look worked well initially and I feel is actually a credible defense he developed in light of our poor CB play prior to the breaking out of Webster, prior to the drafting of Amukamura, and after the falloff of Ross. Fewell's issue has been his inability to adjust once opposing offenses figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hlb37 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Of course, grant is a savvy vet. It's awesome what he does for the lockeroom. Bottom line, at the end of the day. Rolle .... have been fantastic as Giants and especially the last 2 weeks. LOL. was that intentional? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Wagon Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Rolle as definitely stepped up his game....and not a moment too soon. He is hawking and hitting and not running himself out of plays. I hope he keeps it up. I'm not seeing it with KP....there is something wrong there......he is certainly a step slower....he was late getting over on that Robinson's 35 yd TD....which means he must have bit on that play action...and unlike two years ago...could not get back to help the corner......also....when he blitzes....which he did twice in the cowboy's game....he can't get around the tackle or shoot the gap. Not that he was ever a really good blitzer to start with....He ain't scaring nobody. Then there is his tackling...other then the hit he put on Graham from NO game...the guy isn't bringing it like he use to..he's not getting there like he used too....in fact...in each of the last four games he's had to sit at some point because he's gotten hurt on a tackle..once he's leg/ankle buckled....in another he got his neck jammed.....which to me means he is more "getting in the way" of a ball carrier....flat footed....then bringing the lumber like an SS should on run support. I'm sure the kid hurt. That knee isn't back yet. Fortunately, he's a really smart safety...and is usually where he needs to be that soft zone. But they are playing that soft zone because our guys back there are playing slow this year and don't have the make up speed if they make a mistake. On the positive side...he is having a carrier year on ints...... Hopefully he can get through the year without making the knee any worse. C. Wagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osi724dasack Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 LOL. was that intentional? Yea haha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firstnten Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Stats lie like motherfuckers sometimes. Remember a year or two ago when we had a top 10 ranked D? It wasn't because we could stop anybody, it was because our special teams consistently gave the opposition a short field. We were ranked top 10 in yards/game and like 29th in points allowed. Stats can be decieving but like you just stated points is the great equalizer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I think they did pretty good all things considering this season. Now the easiest thing you can possible do is look and see the Giants pass defense was ranked 29th this season. The second easiest thing you can do is look at the number of big play passes that safeties are supposed to prevent. We were ranked in the top 5 for least passing plays of over 20 and 40 yards. Receivers were settling down in the soft spots of our zone defense this year and taking advantage of the rookie linebackers we had out there. Hell you can break the defense down even further and point out that opponents didn't need the big play pass since we were busy getting torn up by the running game as well. If you guys want to look at stats, spend some time and look at all of them for a change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osi724dasack Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 ^ Exactly!! Couldn't have said it any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 ^ Exactly!! Couldn't have said it any better. ya, he's got some great points, but I don't see anywhere in there where he admits that Rolle and Phillips have been gamebreakers all season. That's OsiStroud's idea, haha They played very well the last two games. I'd like to see a full season of high level play out of Rolle and Phillips, just once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osi724dasack Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 ya, he's got some great points, but I don't see anywhere in there where he admits that Rolle and Phillips have been gamebreakers all season. That's OsiStroud's idea, haha They played very well the last two games. I'd like to see a full season of high level play out of Rolle and Phillips, just once. Haha I was awaiting your reply, size your the king Rolle/KP hater. But sure you'll see them ballhawking and making crazy plays on a regular basis whenever we get a new DC With Fewell he plays KP way back just making sure nobody scores a long TD to sum it up. And he just abuses the shit out of Rolle and treats him like a bitch playing him all over the place and not letting him settle in and yet Rolle hasn't complained and has still played very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Haha I was awaiting your reply, size your the king Rolle/KP hater. But sure you'll see them ballhawking and making crazy plays on a regular basis whenever we get a new DC With Fewell he plays KP way back just making sure nobody scores a long TD to sum it up. And he just abuses the shit out of Rolle and treats him like a bitch playing him all over the place and not letting him settle in and yet Rolle hasn't complained and has still played very well. I have definitely been impressed with them recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osi724dasack Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 and storm when did I ever say Rolle and KP have been gamebreakers all year????? Never ever said that I've just been defending them both since they get ridiculous amounts of unndeserved hatred. There both really good players and Id take them over most Saftey tandoms. You just need to understand NFL defense and what type of scheme we play and how these players are used before you start hating a player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osi724dasack Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 I have definitely been impressed with them recently. Yea man Fewell has been calling some Better plays lately and we can only hope He keeps It up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 and storm when did I ever say Rolle and KP have been gamebreakers all year????? Never ever said that I've just been defending them both since they get ridiculous amounts of unndeserved hatred. There both really good players and Id take them over most Saftey tandoms. You just need to understand NFL defense and what type of scheme we play and how these players are used before you start hating a player. I just think a few years in the system is plenty of time to understand the NFL defense they are in but they've made the same mistakes over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osi724dasack Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 ^^ they understand the D, that's not the issue at all. And nobody's perfect either, you think Ed Reed doesn't get fucked up occasionally?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balloonknot Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I just think a few years in the system is plenty of time to understand the NFL defense they are in but they've made the same mistakes over the years. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mClfU2NStY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mClfU2NStY LMAO! did he say that he "snorts" glass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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