Philip Rivers....elite QB falls short again.

[JMFP]

HA HA HA HA HA...the dog didn't go any further...

 

Then I won't either. I asked you to expound on what you saw last weekend....you couldn't even reply.

 

I just provided my argument for why Eli is an elite QB. You can disagree with me or not, but if you won't even take the time to read it, I have nothing further to discuss with you.

 

I'll address this to whomever else might be interested.....my questions is: must one be a Hall of Fame lock in order to be considered "elite"?

 

I say no. And I'll give you an example as to why....

 

Patrick Swilling.....in his time, he was an "elite" linebacker....5 time pro bowl selection. Defensive player of the year in 1991. Consistently among the best at his position during his playing days.

 

Lawrence Taylor.....more than an elite player....a Hall of Famer, and ranked as the #3 player of all time by the NFL network.

 

I could go on all day with more comparisons.

 

In fact, this afternoon, we just saw a good defense of my grading system.

 

I argued that Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco were both "good" QBs, with the chance to become "elite" QBs if their production continued along. They each fell short this season, which reinforces their standing at just a notch below elite.

 

I argued that Aaron Rodgers and Ben Rothlisberger belonged in the same "elite" category as Eli, Rivers, and Romo. And they have each advanced to the next round.

 

Does anyone think that Aaron Rodgers is a Hall of Famer at this point? And if not, is he merely another "good" QB, like, say, Joe Flacco or Mark Sanchez?

[BlueInCanada]

I guess my questions for others is: must one be a Hall of Fame lock in order to be considered "elite"?

 

I say no. And I'll give you an example.

 

Patrick Swilling.....in his time, he was an "elite" linebacker....5 time pro bowl selection. Defensive player of the year in 1991. Consistently among the best at his position during his playing days.

 

Lawrence Taylor.....more than an elite player....a Hall of Famer, and ranked as the #3 player of all time by the NFL network.

 

I could go on all day with more comparisons.

 

They don't have to be a sure fire lock at hall of farmer.

 

When I think of an "elite" player I think of someone who while they were playing was one of the best at their position. Obviously some positions i.e OL don't have the "big play" impact as others but are valuable none the less.

 

Talking about QBs in this case I would rate an elite QB someone who regardless of the talent of their team can get things done and always put their team into a position to win. Look at what Rodgers did tonight against the Falcons or what Tom Brady does on a game by game basis. They take their team and not only lead them to the win but are pretty much the reason why they won.

 

One obvious question I usually ask myself is, if so and so players wasnt on this team or in this game would they still have won/lost? Lets look back at the season and say how many games did Eli win for us? I'm not talking about going out there and not throwing a pick or just keeping the game close but I mean legitimately went out there and won the game with his talent.

 

To me Eli isnt elite and he is never going to be, however he is a really good QB who makes plays and puts us in winning positions. He's the best QB the Giants have had to this point in my opinion and when he does leave Big Blue we hopefully have someone there waiting in the wings or else we are headed for a downward spiral.

 

So in my opinion (so this is all this thread is really about) Eli isnt nor will ever be an elite QB but he is what he is and that's a good QB.

[JMFP]

They don't have to be a sure fire lock at hall of farmer.

 

When I think of an "elite" player I think of someone who while they were playing was one of the best at their position. Obviously some positions i.e OL don't have the "big play" impact as others but are valuable none the less.

 

Talking about QBs in this case I would rate an elite QB someone who regardless of the talent of their team can get things done and always put their team into a position to win. Look at what Rodgers did tonight against the Falcons or what Tom Brady does on a game by game basis. They take their team and not only lead them to the win but are pretty much the reason why they won.

 

One obvious question I usually ask myself is, if so and so players wasnt on this team or in this game would they still have won/lost? Lets look back at the season and say how many games did Eli win for us? I'm not talking about going out there and not throwing a pick or just keeping the game close but I mean legitimately went out there and won the game with his talent.

 

To me Eli isnt elite and he is never going to be, however he is a really good QB who makes plays and puts us in winning positions. He's the best QB the Giants have had to this point in my opinion and when he does leave Big Blue we hopefully have someone there waiting in the wings or else we are headed for a downward spiral.

 

So in my opinion (so this is all this thread is really about) Eli isnt nor will ever be an elite QB but he is what he is and that's a good QB.

 

The Giants were looking like the best team in the NFL halfway through the season, and then he lost his entire receiving corps, and the majority of his offensive line. And still, despite that, he had the Giants on the doorstep of another NFC East Title.....it was an epic failure on the part of the defense and special teams that made the difference this year.

 

10 wins, #5 in passing yards, #4 in TDs.....with wide receivers that they pulled off the street, a makeshift line, and running backs that refused to hold on to the football.

 

So, to me, he's better than "good", but not a Hall of Famer. I think "elite" - as described in the dictionary, is appropriate.

[BlueInCanada]

The Giants were looking like the best team halfway through the season, and then he lost his entire receiving corps, and the majority of his offensive line. And still, despite that, he had the Giants on the doorstep of another NFC East Title.....it was an epic failure on the part of the defense and special teams that made the difference this year.

 

10 wins, #5 in passing yards, #4 in TDs.....with wide receivers that they pulled off the street, a makeshift line, and running backs that refused to hold on to the football.

 

So, to me, he's better than "good", but not a Hall of Famer.

 

No this sounds about right for a good QB.

 

Peyton Manning has had the same problems all year with injuries to their WR core, O-line and their running game and he still managed to get his team to the playoffs with a much worse defense.

 

Brees had no running game at all plus Colston was in and out with injuries their #1 WR and their defense is even worse then the colts.

 

Rodgers won when he needed to help secure a spot in the playoffs.

 

Brady is throwing to who for WRs? Welker and Branch? Who is their #1 RB again? Woodhead? Their defense was what 25th in the league?

 

Elite QBs find a way to take their team into the post-season regardless of the excuses.

 

Good QBs even though they may have played well throughout the year, will be sitting out come December.

 

Eli is a good QB, inside the top 10 easily. Elite? No he will never be, but he might be great once it's all said and done. Like I said Eli is our guy and I'm glad he is, but there are a few QBs I would gladly take over him.

[JMFP]

I understand your argument. I don't agree with it, but I understand where you are coming from. To me, it seems like your "good" category encompasses alot of QBs.

 

Personally I think Eli's biggest fault is playing in a league with two living legends in his brother, and Tom Brady. And as I said, Brees is making a case for the Hall of Fame.

 

Eli clearly isn't in that category, just like Patrick Swilling wasn't Lawrence Taylor.

 

If Aaron Rodgers goes to Chicago and beats the Bears, and then beats Tom Brady and wins a Super Bowl.......he will have accomplished what Eli Manning did.

 

Let's see it happen....and even if not, then, I've got Rodgers as an "elite" QB. And if he is there, without the hardware, then Eli Manning goes there too. And let's just keep in mind that Eli passed for more yards, and more TDs than Rodgers this season, too.

 

Oh yeah, one last thing.....I don't recall the Packers D/ST shitting the bed to the tune of 28 points in less than 8 minutes. Hard to fit that in among the QB stats.

[Nas]

why don't you speak for yourself? you are not the voice of giants nation. state your own opinion. don't speak for other people.

 

Wow, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings brah

[ksm7]

No, you said Eli was no better than Doug Williams, Trent Dilfer and Jeff Hostetler. You also said that Rivers, Rodgers and Rothlisberger are clearly better than Eli, yet you also said Rivers isn't and elite qb.

 

no virginia giant, the dog never said any such thing. what the dog said when told that eli was elite because he won a super bowl championship was that many QBs that are not elite have won super bowl championships (a la hostetler, williams, dilfer...etc...etc...). in other words, winning a super bowl does not elevate one QB to being elite, which was the crux of joe's argument when all of this started (until yesterday's little tickle of the funny bone). there is a difference. if the dog wanted to say he was no better than those QBs, well then the dog would have just said that. you jumped to that conclusion. the fact is, like those other super bowl winning QBs, eli is not elite. that is the only comparison the dog ever made.

[JMFP]

no virginia giant, the dog never said any such thing. what the dog said when told that eli was elite because he won a super bowl championship was that many QBs that are not elite have won super bowl championships (a la hostetler, williams, dilfer...etc...etc...). in other words, winning a super bowl does not elevate one QB to being elite, which was the crux of joe's argument when all of this started (until yesterday's little tickle of the funny bone). there is a difference. if the dog wanted to say he was no better than those QBs, well then the dog would have just said that. you jumped to that conclusion. the fact is, like those other super bowl winning QBs, eli is not elite. that is the only comparison the dog ever made.

 

Actually Dog, I would prefer if you don't attempt to present my argument.

 

People can feel free to refer to my comments made yesterday at 4:02pm.

 

I described what I believe is Hall of Fame, Elite, Good, Average and Poor. And I provided examples for the top 3 categories.

 

So, people can make up their own mind without your ass-tastic spin on my comments.

 

Thanks for your anticipated cooperation.

[Nas]

Actually Dog, I would prefer if you don't attempt to present my argument.

 

People can feel free to refer to my comments made yesterday at 4:02pm.

 

I described what I believe is Hall of Fame, Elite, Good, Average and Poor. And I provided examples for the top 3 categories.

 

So, people can make up their own mind without your ass-tastic spin on my comments.

 

Thanks for you anticipated cooperation.

 

Ass-tastic?.. Dog Meter? I have to say Joe.. I'm impressed

[fringe]

Wow, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings brah

 

i assure you , you didn't.

[Nas]

i assure you , you didn't.

 

You sure acted like it.

[fringe]

You sure acted like it.

 

please don't talk to me. i don't like you. thanks.

[Nas]

please don't talk to me. i don't like you. thanks.

 

well you're an asshole. Put me on ignore since I obviously I'm not allowed to put any asshole on here on ignore.

 

Thanks.

[fringe]

[JMFP]

 

Hall of Fame QBs

• Peyton Manning: Hall of Fame (ranked #8 on the greatest players of all time)
  
• Tom Brady: Hall of Fame (ranked #21 on the greatest players of all time)
  
• Drew Brees: Arguably Hall of Fame / Elite +
  

 

Elite QBs

 

• Philip Rivers: Elite (excellent career so far; terrific stats, winner)
  
• Rothlisberger: Elite (championships, wins, stats)
  
• Eli Manning: Elite (champsionship, wins, stats, durability)
  
• Romo: Elite (excellent career so far, terrific stats, winner)
  
• Aaron Rodgers: Elite (excellent career so far, terrific stats, winner)

 

Good QBs

• Matt Ryan (moving into Elite range soon)
  
• Jay Cutler (very good stats, could be making a move up pending playoffs)
  
• Joe Flacco (good young QB, making the most of what he has, winner; on his way up)
  
• Mark Sanchez (good young QB, making the most of his opportunity, winner)
  
• Hasselbeck (on the down side of his career; was once elite).
  
• Vick (possibly Elite, but end of this season exposed flaws in game;)
  
• Donovan McNabb (once was elite, out of gas).
  
• Matt Schaub (good stats, but still hasn't won anything)
  
• Carson Palmer (once was elite, but too many losses to deserve consideration anymore)
  

 

I wonder if the Dog finds it interesting that my list of "elite" QBs includes 2 in the Super Bowl.

 

My list of "good" QBs have now all been washed out through the playoff process....Ryan, Cutler, Flacco, Sanchez, Hasselbeck, and Vick, to be specific.

[ksm7]

I wonder if the Dog finds it interesting that my list of "elite" QBs includes 2 in the Super Bowl.

 

My list of "good" QBs have now all been washed out through the playoff process....Ryan, Cutler, Flacco, Sanchez, Hasselbeck, and Vick, to be specific.

 

sorry joe - the dog has an issue with how this was handled. you reworked everything to fit eli into a category that you can say is "elite" by elevating the other three QBs to "beyond elite"...if you recall, after the giants won the super bowl is when all this started. you said eli was thrust into the ranks of elite because he was the SB winning QB, something you said was in the criteria for that. when the dog countered with dilfer...etc...you held fast to your comments (and in fact, since dilfer was still in the league at the time, you ranked him in your top 8 QBs at the time because of that). when the dog countered with marino you said he was "the exception to the rule." Now, years later, when Eli hasn't progressed much further, you have changed your tune. suddenly you are separating out elite from beyond elite and QBs such as Romo, Rivers, Rodgers who haven't won a championship are elite.

 

in the end, you have been agreeing with the dog all along, only you have added subjective levels and changed the titles of the categories. the dog has maintained that peyton, brees, and brady are the current elite QBs in the league, and that most of the rest fall into the next category, with a handful falling into a third tier. you added a fourth tier. that is about it...going out on quite a limb to rate roethlisberger and rodgers at a high level there bill walsh.

[JMFP]

sorry joe - the dog has an issue with how this was handled. you reworked everything to fit eli into a category that you can say is "elite" by elevating the other three QBs to "beyond elite"...if you recall, after the giants won the super bowl is when all this started. you said eli was thrust into the ranks of elite because he was the SB winning QB, something you said was in the criteria for that. when the dog countered with dilfer...etc...you held fast to your comments (and in fact, since dilfer was still in the league at the time, you ranked him in your top 8 QBs at the time because of that). when the dog countered with marino you said he was "the exception to the rule." Now, years later, when Eli hasn't progressed much further, you have changed your tune. suddenly you are separating out elite from beyond elite and QBs such as Romo, Rivers, Rodgers who haven't won a championship are elite.

 

in the end, you have been agreeing with the dog all along, only you have added subjective levels and changed the titles of the categories. the dog has maintained that peyton, brees, and brady are the current elite QBs in the league, and that most of the rest fall into the next category, with a handful falling into a third tier. you added a fourth tier. that is about it...going out on quite a limb to rate roethlisberger and rodgers at a high level there bill walsh.

 

Actually, if you search your feelings Dog, you know that is not correct.

 

I've never placed Eli in a Hall of Fame category....that was why I called him "elite". An "elite" QB is temporary - players rise and fall according to their time and accomplishments in the league. A Hall of Famer, by contrast, is someone who stands out beyond his current peers, and deserves to be ranked among the greatest of all time.

 

I gave you a different example: Lawrence Taylor and Patrick Swilling - to show the difference between an HOFer and an elite player.

 

And I made allowances for guys like Dan Marino and Dan Fouts.

 

It will take some time, but when I have a chance, I'm sure I can find my old posts on this topic.....I'm confident they will expose your misconceptions.

 

Again....I listed five categories:

 

Hall of Fame

Elite

Good

Average

Poor

 

Two of the QBs that I consider "elite" are now going to the Super Bowl....all of the QBs that were sent packing were part of the "good" group I mentioned.

 

You can disagree with the terms, but I think my reasoning is sound.

[ksm7]

Actually, if you search your feelings Dog, you know that is not correct.

 

I've never placed Eli in a Hall of Fame category....that was why I called him "elite". An "elite" QB is temporary - players rise and fall according to their time and accomplishments in the league. A Hall of Famer, by contrast, is someone who stands out beyond his current peers, and deserves to be ranked among the greatest of all time.

 

I gave you a different example: Lawrence Taylor and Patrick Swilling - to show the difference between an HOFer and an elite player.

 

And I made allowances for guys like Dan Marino and Dan Fouts.

 

It will take some time, but when I have a chance, I'm sure I can find my old posts on this topic.....I'm confident they will expose your misconceptions.

 

Again....I listed five categories:

 

Hall of Fame

Elite

Good

Average

Poor

 

Two of the QBs that I consider "elite" are now going to the Super Bowl....all of the QBs that were sent packing were part of the "good" group I mentioned.

 

You can disagree with the terms, but I think my reasoning is sound.

 

funny, you never mentioned a hall of fame category in 3 years of debating this with the dog...and now suddenly, faced with having to defend your statement of eli being an elite QB, you came up with this ponderous theory. what the dog can't understand is your uncomfortable passion for this. why the need to insist on eli being elite? why not accept that he is a solid QB and the team is capable of winning with him...no more, no less...solid. he is at the midpoint of his career. if he doesn't get consistent and grow beyond the level he has been at for 3 years now, solid will be the best category you can fit him in.

[JMFP]

funny, you never mentioned a hall of fame category in 3 years of debating this with the dog...

 

Are you sure you wish to stand behind that claim?