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What is missing?


Guest CoachLubrano
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Guest CoachLubrano

In the recent years of the Giant franchise, we've had a whole lot of potential. But that's it - just potential. It's really seemed to me that despite our teams sometimes overacheiving and recently overbearing talents, something just isn't there. What do you think it is - the one thing that completes a football team?

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"overbearing" talents?

 

:confused:

 

The one thing that completes a football team is: wins

 

I'm not trying to be a smart ass either; there is a very fine line between winning and losing in any given game -- the arbitrary nature of games makes the grey area more important than a mere black and white analysis.

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Guest CoachLubrano
"overbearing" talents?

 

:confused:

 

The one thing that completes a football team is: wins

 

I'm not trying to be a smart ass either; there is a very fine line between winning and losing in any given game -- the arbitrary nature of games makes the grey area more important than a mere black and white analysis.

 

 

If you think an offense that features Tiki Barber, Jeremy Shockey, Plaxico Burress, and Amani Toomer isn't overbearing with talent, I'd like you to name an offense in the NFL with more playmakers at the skill positions.

 

As for the second part, you obviously did not understand my question. I wasn't asking what a team needs to do to be considered good. My question was this: Since our team is so talented, what is it that is keeping us from taking the next step and turning that talent into results?

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I think your being impatient. Three years ago we were 4-12 and very few would say we were loaded with talent. Two years ago we started a rookie QB half the season and finished 6-10. Once again, there were some bright spots, but it was hardly a case of underachieving. Last year we were never mentioned as a contender and we went out and won the division.

 

We've got a young team. We've got just as good a chance as any other team in our division, maybe a better chance. I'm not sure what the complaint is.

 

If you're asking the difference between last years club and our Super Bowl teams, it's obvious .... dominating defense.

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Guest CoachLubrano
I think your being impatient. Three years ago we were 4-12 and very few would say we were loaded with talent. Two years ago we started a rookie QB half the season and finished 6-10. Once again, there were some bright spots, but it was hardly a case of underachieving. Last year we were never mentioned as a contender and we went out and won the division.

 

We've got a young team. We've got just as good a chance as any other team in our division, maybe a better chance. I'm not sure what the complaint is.

 

If you're asking the difference between last years club and our Super Bowl teams, it's obvious .... dominating defense.

 

 

There was no complaint at all.

 

If you remember the 2002 season I believe, many would say we had a great chance to make the Superbowl until the debachle against the 49ers. The special teams fiasco that ensued seemed to trigger a tailspin into darkness for a while, but we were definitely expected to do better than we did.

 

I agree, our team right now is very talented where we have youth, and I expect a very bright future for this unit. But we certainly have the talent on hand that is needed to go farther than we have.

 

Tell me you didn't think our team played well enough at times last year to win a superbowl? For a good portion of the season, we had the #1 scoring offense. The players are in place.

 

As far as dominating defense, there was a stretch of something like 3 games this past season where our defense didn't give up a touchdown. That's pretty damn dominating. I agree, they need to be more consistent, but the talent is once again there.

 

Our special teams were a bright spot all year, except the Vikings game and Jay Feel's game changing misses against Seattle and Dallas. David Tyree is possibly the best non-kicking special teams player in the league, and we have several young players that have a nose for delivering the blow on coverage. Willie Ponder was leading NFC candidate for Pro Bowl kick return specialist until he fumbled against the Vikings and dissapeared for the rest of the season.

 

Let my try to further clarify my question:

 

There is an obvious parity in the league right now, and it seems like the team that has that certain intangible to get it over the hump (ala the New England Patriots of the past few years) is the one that is going to seperate itself from the others.

 

What are the intangibles that makes up a championship winning team?

 

Is it team unity (no T.O. type attitudes)?

 

Ability to stay healthy?

 

Something else?

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There was no complaint at all.

 

If you remember the 2002 season I believe, many would say we had a great chance to make the Superbowl until the debachle against the 49ers. The special teams fiasco that ensued seemed to trigger a tailspin into darkness for a while, but we were definitely expected to do better than we did.

 

I wouldn't have. We got in as a wildcard by winning our final game in OT at home, and having another team (I forget who, although I think it was the Saints) lose. That doesn't smack of a Superbowl team to me, but your mileage may vary. And that wildcard game was an exposure of a mediocre at best defense, that completely fell apart in the second half of that game.

 

In 2003, we lost Whittle and Rosenthal, and went with rookies at those positions. Then Seubert went down. Pettigout played injured, because there really wasn't anyone to replace him. Then we had receivers go down, along with Shockey. Finally, Collins went down. There was no offense, and the team flat out quit.

 

In 2004, we got killed with injuries again, among other things. I thought we played over our head at the beginning of the season, and got lucky with a rash of turnovers. Then the wheels fell off of our defense: both starting DEs out for the season, Green IR'd, both Shawn Williams and Gibril Wilson gone, and we had guys like Hand and Emmons in and out of the lineup all season. Between that and the QB situation, 6-10 wasn't really that surprising.

 

This year, aside from Manning wearing down near the end (and I have a feeling the coaches saw it coming, but didn't expect it to be as bad--look how little Tiki was running at the beginning of the season compared to the end of the season), the whole story was in the utter decimation of the LB core. Not one of the starters that were anticipated preseason was on the field against Carolina. In fact, only Greisen was on the field from our second string.

 

The pattern? Our backups haven't been very good until last year. And we have had a rash of injuries like I've never seen: not so much the number of injuries (although 2003-2004 were really high) but in the fact that they seem to be concentrated at one or two positions each year (2003:O-line and WR/TE; 2004:safties and D-line; and last year LB).

 

Hopefully this year, we break the pattern.

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Guest CoachLubrano

Thanks for the thought out response.

 

I totally agree with you - injuries are a huge part of what has kept this team at bay for the last few years. It seemed like we were going to avoid it this year (Shaun and Will Peterson went down, but everyone knew that was going to happen), but toward the end the injuries on defense just broke the camel's back.

 

One of the keys for us next year is staying healthy on defense.

 

It looks like the front office has realized this and is actively persuing quality backups.

 

This is a trend you will see increase around the league as players get bigger and faster, because as a result injuries will become even more prevalent. Backups will become more important and paid more as well.

 

One mistake the front office seems to make is to take too many gambles on previously injured players. Most if not all people that want us to go after damaged goods fair to realize the severity of some of the injuries such players have suffered.

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Thanks for the thought out response.

 

Happy to oblige.

 

Injuries are going to happen: If Carter winds up playing, he's going down. Fine, so long as Plax and Toomer don't go down as well. I'll be ecstatic if we don't get hit with the injury bug this year. I'll be happy if the injuries are at least spread out enough that our backups aren't overwhelmed.

 

You made a good point about us getting injured players lately.

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Guest Carbo

Your premise that this team is loaded with talent is where you are going wrong. And that will be quite evident when the upcoming season begins. This year's schedule is very tough.

Shockey has enormous potential. But all that means is he hasn't done it yet. And until he decides he wants to be a key part of this team and contribute to a championship, he will be just that. Potentially great.

Burress? Oh, please! He is an overrated cancer who the Giants are better off without.

Toomer has been a standup Giant his whole career. But he's on the downside of that career.

The secondary is weak. The linebackers, with the exception of Pierce, are weak. There is no DT. QB is a big question mark. So, I ask you again, what "talent" does this team have presently?

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Guest Lockhart
Your premise that this team is loaded with talent is where you are going wrong. And that will be quite evident when the upcoming season begins. This year's schedule is very tough.

Shockey has enormous potential. But all that means is he hasn't done it yet. And until he decides he wants to be a key part of this team and contribute to a championship, he will be just that. Potentially great.

Burress? Oh, please! He is an overrated cancer who the Giants are better off without.

Toomer has been a standup Giant his whole career. But he's on the downside of that career.

The secondary is weak. The linebackers, with the exception of Pierce, are weak. There is no DT. QB is a big question mark. So, I ask you again, what "talent" does this team have presently?

 

 

I was contemplating a Plaxico for Javon Walker trade, giving the Packers a healthy (not mentally) WR while the Giants would take on Walker - this is a trade that would pay off big time, and throw TO-Lite from his digs poolside to the tundra at Lambeau. The Packers get a healthy WR today, while the Giants have a franchise WR for years to come after his FULL recovery - something Plaxico could never be. The Giants won on offense with Tiki anyway, so this would give Wlker some time to recover this season.

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Your premise that this team is loaded with talent is where you are going wrong. And that will be quite evident when the upcoming season begins. This year's schedule is very tough.

Shockey has enormous potential. But all that means is he hasn't done it yet (3 time pro bowler..That means that he has done it). And until he decides he wants to be a key part of this team and contribute to a championship, he will be just that. Potentially great.

Burress? Oh, please! He is an overrated cancer who the Giants are better off without.

Toomer has been a standup Giant his whole career(Didnt he skip Camp too :confused: ). But he's on the downside of that career.

The secondary is weak. The linebackers, with the exception of Pierce, are weak. There is no DT. QB is a big question mark(Only to you morons). So, I ask you again, what "talent" does this team have presently?

 

Tiki

Gap tooth

Osi

Shockey (3 time pro-bowler)

Plax (1200+ yards 7 TD)

Wilson (Lead NFC in Tackles for a Safety, 2nd in NFL)

Manning (Tied for 4th in the NFL in TD passes)

Pierce

Madison (Pro bowler)

Tyree (Pro bowler)

Snee (Should be a Pro bowler)

Jeff Feagles (Best Punter Ever)

Willi J (Has Talent)

Come on Lets hear you bull shit reason why Shockey / Plax / Manning / Willi J ect ect dont have Talent :rolleyes:

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Guest Nutty Sack
Tiki

Gap tooth

Osi

Shockey (3 time pro-bowler)

Plax (1200+ yards 7 TD)

Wilson (Lead NFC in Tackles for a Safety, 2nd in NFL)

Manning (Tied for 4th in the NFL in TD passes)

Pierce

Madison (Pro bowler)

Tyree (Pro bowler)

Snee (Should be a Pro bowler)

Jeff Feagles (Best Punter Ever)

Willi J (Has Talent)

Come on Lets hear you bull shit reason why Shockey / Plax / Manning / Willi J ect ect dont have Talent :rolleyes:

 

 

 

You left Lavar off the list !!! :LMAO:

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Guest Nutty Sack
I was contemplating a Plaxico for Javon Walker trade, giving the Packers a healthy (not mentally) WR while the Giants would take on Walker - this is a trade that would pay off big time, and throw TO-Lite from his digs poolside to the tundra at Lambeau. The Packers get a healthy WR today, while the Giants have a franchise WR for years to come after his FULL recovery - something Plaxico could never be. The Giants won on offense with Tiki anyway, so this would give Wlker some time to recover this season.

 

 

Lock don't be so bashfull.....no need to contemplate the obvious. Shout it out loud and proud. Plax sealed his fate in the embarrassing playoff shutout. He quit on his team and then compounds it by hanging out in South Beach with the other cry baby.

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Guest Lockhart
Lock don't be so bashfull.....no need to contemplate the obvious. Shout it out loud and proud. Plax sealed his fate in the embarrassing playoff shutout. He quit on his team and then compounds it by hanging out in South Beach with the other cry baby.

 

 

Good Point - no need for a Dentist to clean this Plax off the Giants - trade him for Walker today and improve the team - trade up and draft Vernon Davis and trade Shockless to Miami (probably have to send someone down to the nudie bars in Miami to find him, sober him up, and tell him of the trade). Then The giants will have a full 53 man roster - not 51 plus two lazy prima donnas with brick hands.

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Guest Floyd The Barber

moving these 2 malcontents in one deal would put the Giants in the drivers seat...prepare a package of both Shockey and Plaxico, and trade them away...put the Giants in position to acquire LB A.J. Hawk, and a DT in the first round...

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Guest Nutty Sack
moving these 2 malcontents in one deal would put the Giants in the drivers seat...prepare a package of both Shockey and Plaxico, and trade them away...put the Giants in position to acquire LB A.J. Hawk, and a DT in the first round...

 

 

 

Great idea but it would upset so many unimaginative fans here who seem to be in love with what they do off the field as opposed to on it.

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moving these 2 malcontents in one deal would put the Giants in the drivers seat...prepare a package of both Shockey and Plaxico, and trade them away...put the Giants in position to acquire LB A.J. Hawk, and a DT in the first round...

 

Then who will Eli throw the ball to? Toomer hasn't been a #1 WR in some time now and we don't have a TE to replace Shockey with? Not to mention Tikis production will go down because he is the only offensive threat

 

 

So what Im trying to ask is; How would the Giants supplement there production? :confused:

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moving these 2 malcontents in one deal would put the Giants in the drivers seat...prepare a package of both Shockey and Plaxico, and trade them away...put the Giants in position to acquire LB A.J. Hawk, and a DT in the first round...

 

 

Then who will Eli throw the ball to? Toomer hasn't been a #1 WR in some time now and we don't have a TE to replace Shockey with? Not to mention Tikis production will go down because he is the only offensive threat

So what Im trying to ask is; How would the Giants supplement there production? :confused:

 

Real question here.....Can you not answer it?

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moving these 2 malcontents in one deal would put the Giants in the drivers seat...prepare a package of both Shockey and Plaxico, and trade them away...put the Giants in position to acquire LB A.J. Hawk, and a DT in the first round...

 

 

Then who will Eli throw the ball to? Toomer hasn't been a #1 WR in some time now and we don't have a TE to replace Shockey with? Not to mention Tikis production will go down because he is the only offensive threat

So what Im trying to ask is; How would the Giants supplement there production? :confused:

 

Lock.....No response?

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Guest Floyd The Barber

WR's and TE's are easily replaceable...we have a legit #1 in Toomer...we can fill the void of a #2 easily through FA, or an undrafted rookie...TE as well...of course these would be temporary stop-gates, while we begin to load the DEFENSIVE side full of talent, franchise LB's , DT's and DB's...we can address WR TE and RB the following year...one may not forget, these TE's and WR's WOULD WANT to play for the NYG's, and would be putting foward 150% effort...they will BE with there team, and do whatever it took to be a NYG...that is the kind of player we need in blue...

 

let me repeat myself...at the begining of camp 2006 the undrafted rookie list is ENORMOUS...we can lift 2 or 3 WR's as well as TE's and let them compete...once again this would be TEMPORARY and allow us to build the DEFENSIVE side of the ball the correct way...

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WR's and TE's are easily replaceable...we have a legit #1 in Toomer...we can fill the void of a #2 easily through FA, or an undrafted rookie...TE as well...of course these would be temporary stop-gates, while we begin to load the DEFENSIVE side full of talent, franchise LB's , DT's and DB's...we can address WR TE and RB the following year...one may not forget, these TE's and WR's WOULD WANT to play for the NYG's, and would be putting foward 150% effort...they will BE with there team, and do whatever it took to be a NYG...that is the kind of player we need in blue...

 

let me repeat myself...at the begining of camp 2006 the undrafted rookie list is ENORMOUS...we can lift 2 or 3 WR's as well as TE's and let them compete...once again this would be TEMPORARY and allow us to build the DEFENSIVE side of the ball the correct way...

so get rid of Plax, toomer can be the #1 and we can pull in a rookie WR as the #2?

 

here we see where the wealth of the fab fours football knowledge base is formed.

electronicquarterback.jpg

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Guest Floyd The Barber

incorrect short brain...

 

you instill the fear of god into Taylor and Carter...they are both mandated to play an entire season between the 2 of them, if they can not stay healthy they are done with the NYG's...you pick up a #3 undrafted rookie from a pool of WR's you bring in to compete...you go with the best obviously...same train of thought for TE...

 

once again, this is a temporary fix for 2006...in 2007 you being to build you offense and set yourself up with WR's , TE's and RB's...

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WR's and TE's are easily replaceable...we have a legit #1 in Toomer...we can fill the void of a #2 easily through FA, or an undrafted rookie...TE as well...of course these would be temporary stop-gates, while we begin to load the DEFENSIVE side full of talent, franchise LB's , DT's and DB's...we can address WR TE and RB the following year...one may not forget, these TE's and WR's WOULD WANT to play for the NYG's, and would be putting foward 150% effort...they will BE with there team, and do whatever it took to be a NYG...that is the kind of player we need in blue...

 

let me repeat myself...at the begining of camp 2006 the undrafted rookie list is ENORMOUS...we can lift 2 or 3 WR's as well as TE's and let them compete...once again this would be TEMPORARY and allow us to build the DEFENSIVE side of the ball the correct way...

 

Sorry But Toomer isnt a #1 receiver....Build our O from Undrafted rookies? Your kidding right?

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incorrect short brain...

 

you instill the fear of god into Taylor and Carter...they are both mandated to play an entire season between the 2 of them, if they can not stay healthy they are done with the NYG's...you pick up a #3 undrafted rookie from a pool of WR's you bring in to compete...you go with the best obviously...same train of thought for TE...

 

once again, this is a temporary fix for 2006...in 2007 you being to build you offense and set yourself up with WR's , TE's and RB's...

have you seen any giants game in the past year?

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