Post Camp Predictions

[Allstarjim]

I forgot to make my prediction, so here it goes:

 

Smith

Hixon

Manningham

Barden

Nicks

Moss (unfortunately and I hope I'm wrong)

 

This is a departure from my earlier prediction that they would carry 7 receivers, which I now think is not doable.

[Storm]

Judging by the lack of response on my post I think I made a pretty definitive case. Moss should not be on this team. But, because he's the "bubble gum on the bottom of your shoe" of wide receivers, he will once again, inexplicably, flying in the face of all common sense and rationale, find a way to stick with the team one more year. And I guarantee... if I'm right about him making this team... that this will be (mercifully) his last year with the Giants.

 

The cost of keeping him? David Tyree... a high character, high work ethic guy, who is a special teams stud and Super Bowl hero. This has bad juju written all over it if they release him.

 

Unfortunately, from what I read, Tyree did not have a great camp. He's had a case of the dropsies. But he would still be light years better than Moss, whose contributions will be next to nothing this year.

 

He's a second round pick that we've had for 3 years. 2 of those he was injured and appeared in less than 20 games. In the games he has appeared, Burress and Toomer were locked into the WR positions. Other than that, you have nothing to base this on aside from what he's done in a few preseason games. Again, he's caught the same number of touchdowns as Domenik Hixon, as the 4th WR, while Hixon was the number 1.

 

And once again, I refuse to pass judgment on Moss until I see him get some PT. That's it. I've seen nothing out of Hixon in games he's started. And Tyree no longer has a lock the roster because he's a special teams stud. We have other players now to fill that role. In fact, I honestly think that this team has passed David Tyree at this point. Even Super Bowl heroes can't stay on the same team forever.

[Nas]

compared to moss, hilliard is jerry rice.

 

And that rhymes

 

 

no it doesn't

[fringe]

And that rhymes

 

 

no it doesn't

[Allstarjim]

He's a second round pick that we've had for 3 years. 2 of those he was injured and appeared in less than 20 games. In the games he has appeared, Burress and Toomer were locked into the WR positions. Other than that, you have nothing to base this on aside from what he's done in a few preseason games. Again, he's caught the same number of touchdowns as Domenik Hixon, as the 4th WR, while Hixon was the number 1.

 

And once again, I refuse to pass judgment on Moss until I see him get some PT. That's it. I've seen nothing out of Hixon in games he's started. And Tyree no longer has a lock the roster because he's a special teams stud. We have other players now to fill that role. In fact, I honestly think that this team has passed David Tyree at this point. Even Super Bowl heroes can't stay on the same team forever.

 

You're making my point for me.

 

And don't give me the excuse that Burress and Toomer were locked in the positions ahead of him. He could've won more time at slot receiver... and Plaxico was out for 6 games last year. If Moss was good enough or the player that we drafted him to be, he would've earned that PT by now. He would've forced the coaches to play him, a lot more than they have. Hixon has less time with the organization but he was the one chosen to replace Plax in the interim. Seriously, Manningham is ahead of Moss right now... why is that? He also has less time than Moss in the organization.

 

And don't give me touchdown comparisons when you're talking about 2 touchdowns. Whoop di do. That is not a meaningful comparison whatsoever. Amani Toomer had 4 and we let him walk. You using that logic to compare Hixon and Moss is the same as saying that Amani is twice as good as both of them, and that's silly. Hixon has blown Moss out of the water in terms of effectiveness. He's not going to have his bust in Canton, but he did an admirable job being thrust midseason into a role that was probably too big for him, and Eli hadn't had a chance to work with him in that spot, either. Fact is, Moss was not considered for that spot and that's all you really need to know... Hixon, a supplemental 4th round pick, had passed him.

 

You cannot escape the facts or the points that I made. He is not a fit for this organization nor will he be in the future. In 3 years he has done nothing to distinguish himself, and you're only making excuses for him. If we used your logic, than we could say Shaun Bodiford deserves a roster spot because he hasn't had the PT yet, and we refuse to pass judgement on him.

 

As for Tyree, you can never have too many good special teams players. Especially when you're filling out the bottom part of your receiver corps. Those are the guy whose greatest contributions should be on special teams, Storm!

 

 

If Moss were to make this team, what realistically do you think his contribution will be? He will not start. He will not be a slot guy because Manningham has the edge on him there. And Barden and Nicks are already considered the future of this football team and will need work in their rookie years to develop them. In fact, Nicks might push Hixon down to the slot receiver by midseason... where would Moss be then?

 

So if he's your 5th or 6th receiver, and he's not the future of your team... then why are you so insistent that he deserves a spot? So he can contribute his 15 catches and maybe a score or two in mop up duty? That's ridiculous. Tyree will at least be a good gunner, and we all know he's answered the call before when he's seen playing time.... it wasn't just the helmet catch, it was the 1st half touchdown. It's the other times during the season he's taken the field in very limited action and played very well. In fact, you show me Tyree's top 4 receiving performances with the Giants, a guy who's had FAR less opportunity to play as a receiver than Moss, and I'll show you 4 better games than Moss has ever had with the Giants.

 

The only reason people think Moss could be something is because he's a 2nd round pick and he's fast. He's a BUST. As shown earlier in the thread, he didn't even produce good numbers in COLLEGE!

 

So I'm promoting Derek Hagan now. Derek Hagan deserves a chance on this team. The only reason he's not a star yet is because he's been hurt, and he hasn't had any playing time. But he's got a lot of potential... I mean, at least he had two 1200 yard receiving seasons in college, with 18 TD's in those two years... just one of those seasons is double what Moss did in his best season at Miami. So anywho, Derek Hagan, he's the man. <sarcasm>

[Storm]

LOL, Shaun Bodiford. I don't even know who that is.

 

You're wrong, I'm simply against giving up on a SECOND ROUND pick because we've had players locked ahead of him. Moss was hurt his first two seasons. Essentially, last season was his rookie season.

[Allstarjim]

LOL, Shaun Bodiford. I don't even know who that is.

 

You're wrong, I'm simply against giving up on a SECOND ROUND pick because we've had players locked ahead of him. Moss was hurt his first two seasons. Essentially, last season was his rookie season.

 

 

You CANNOT win this argument on anything fact-based or with anything logically rational whatsoever. Just use your common sense, Storm... look at our receiving corps... look at Moss.... he's 5'8"... the fact that he was a 2nd round pick is simply a trivia question and nothing more. Based on his college production (or lack thereof) he wasn't even worthy of that place in the draft.

 

BTW Storm, Moss has seen action in 23 regular season games (as a receiver). Tyree has seen action in only 22 (as a receiver)... he's been with the Giants since 2003. And Tyree has been stuck behind guys on the depth chart that whole time. And yet.... Tyree has 5 games on his resume as a receiver where he has produced more in any of those 5 games than Sinorice Moss' BEST game of his career. And he has a Pro Bowl to boot! That should tell you something. At some point, the "buried by the depth chart excuse has to wear thin. He'll ALWAYS be buried on the depth chart, Storm, because he's 5'8" and he's not a good football player, certainly not better than any of the players we have at WR predicted to make the team, and a couple that aren't.

 

I forgot another thing on my list of things Sinorice Moss can't do... He can't block for running backs or receivers. I will add that to this list.

[BIGBLUE01]

So I'm promoting Derek Hagan now. Derek Hagan deserves a chance on this team. The only reason he's not a star yet is because he's been hurt, and he hasn't had any playing time. But he's got a lot of potential... I mean, at least he had two 1200 yard receiving seasons in college, with 18 TD's in those two years... just one of those seasons is double what Moss did in his best season at Miami. So anywho, Derek Hagan, he's the man. <sarcasm>

 

ASU! ASU!! GO DEVILS!!! He was the man here in Tempe AZ baby.

[Allstarjim]

ASU! ASU!! GO DEVILS!!! He was the man here in Tempe AZ baby.

 

I would pop the bubbly if Hagan made the Giants instead of the mother-in-law of wide receivers.

[BIGBLUE01]

I would pop the bubbly if Hagan made the Giants instead of the mother-in-law of wide receivers.

 

I usually agree with what Storm says, but Im with ya on this one. Moss is no good.

 

 

 

Sorry Storm.

[Storm]

You CANNOT win this argument on anything fact-based or with anything logically rational whatsoever. Just use your common sense, Storm... look at our receiving corps... look at Moss.... he's 5'8"... the fact that he was a 2nd round pick is simply a trivia question and nothing more. Based on his college production (or lack thereof) he wasn't even worthy of that place in the draft.

 

BTW Storm, Moss has seen action in 23 regular season games (as a receiver). Tyree has seen action in only 22 (as a receiver)... he's been with the Giants since 2003. And Tyree has been stuck behind guys on the depth chart that whole time. And yet.... Tyree has 5 games on his resume as a receiver where he has produced more in any of those 5 games than Sinorice Moss' BEST game of his career. And he has a Pro Bowl to boot! That should tell you something. At some point, the "buried by the depth chart excuse has to wear thin. He'll ALWAYS be buried on the depth chart, Storm, because he's 5'8" and he's not a good football player, certainly not better than any of the players we have at WR predicted to make the team, and a couple that aren't.

 

I forgot another thing on my list of things Sinorice Moss can't do... He can't block for running backs or receivers. I will add that to this list.

 

I'm not reposting every stat and reason Sinorice Moss is just as worthy of a roster spot as the glorious (and productive, lmao) Domenik Hixon that I've already posted in this thread. It's not my fault you chose not to read any of it. Forgive me for not giving a shit about what you've posted when I've already stated my opinion and my case better than the last 2 posts I've replied to you, man. It's a waste of my time. Go back and read the first couple pages.

[Storm]

I usually agree with what Storm says, but Im with ya on this one. Moss is no good.

 

 

 

Sorry Storm.

 

And neither is Domenik Hixon, which was my point in the first fucking place. But Jim decided to read what he wanted to read. Not my fault.

 

EVERY receiver we have on this team is only on this team based on potential alone (minus, MAYBE Steve Smith). You can't pass judgment on Moss while the rest of the WRs equally haven't produced. Throw Moss in as the number one WR and I guarantee that he produces more than Hixon.

[BlueInCanada]

Lets just sum up this thread all together.

 

Moss and Hixon arnt the answer at #1 WR for this team, for now until one of the other WRs step up into the position the coaches feel alright with Hixon. He will eventually be replaced and I hope early into the season because Hixon isnt a #1, either Manningham/Nicks/Barden from all indications from camp.

 

Moss is more then likely going to make the team this year and will have a good chance of seeing the field and showing what he can do. If by seasons end Moss still shows no value to the coaches and other WRs have stepped up in the WR core, then Moss will be released by next season. Some people feel its time to move on now but being as our WR core is in a limbo and that I trust the coaches more then any poster on here, who ever are the final WRs are who I'm going to feel good with.

 

/end thread.

[BIGBLUE01]

I dont know what Im seeing that others arent, but I totally think Hixon can be a #1 receiver.

[Storm]

Lets just sum up this thread all together.

 

Moss and Hixon arnt the answer at #1 WR for this team, for now until one of the other WRs step up into the position the coaches feel alright with Hixon. He will eventually be replaced and I hope early into the season because Hixon isnt a #1, either Manningham/Nicks/Barden from all indications from camp.

 

Moss is more then likely going to make the team this year and will have a good chance of seeing the field and showing what he can do. If by seasons end Moss still shows no value to the coaches and other WRs have stepped up in the WR core, then Moss will be released by next season. Some people feel its time to move on now but being as our WR core is in a limbo and that I trust the coaches more then any poster on here, who ever are the final WRs are who I'm going to feel good with.

 

/end thread.

 

Thanks Blue.

[CrazedDogs]

LOL, Shaun Bodiford. I don't even know who that is.

 

You're wrong, I'm simply against giving up on a SECOND ROUND pick because we've had players locked ahead of him. Moss was hurt his first two seasons. Essentially, last season was his rookie season.

 

Let me guess...you also had a man-crush on Tim Carter.

[CrazedDogs]

I dont know what Im seeing that others arent, but I totally think Hixon can be a #1 receiver.

 

If he produces like he did as a starter last year, he can be our #1...but he'd be something like the 30th best #1 WR in the league. Not great, but if the rest of the offense can step up its definitely a level of production we can live with. Plax wasn't good for much more than 70 catches a year anyway. We missed him more in the running game than through the air.

 

I think getting lost in the Hixon-Moss comparison is that they're both about the same age, and in terms of raw talent are not that different. Moss is .1 seconds faster in the 40, Hixon is 4 inches taller...take your pick. These guys are both damn quick. Moss went to a major college and had the NFL pedigree so he went in the 2nd round. Hixon went to Akron, so he was a 4th rounder. Then he had a mental breakdown after Kevin Everett got paralyzed trying to tackle him and consequently was prematurely cut by the Broncos, which I think gave a lot of us the false impression (initially, myself included) that Hixon was just some journeyman, bouncing mid-season from team to team. How does a 2nd rounder with loads of physical talent get beaten out by a scrub (never mind that he's being beaten out by everyone else too)?...simple, Hixon isn't a scrub.

[fishgutmartyr]

And neither is Domenik Hixon, which was my point in the first fucking place. But Jim decided to read what he wanted to read. Not my fault.

 

EVERY receiver we have on this team is only on this team based on potential alone (minus, MAYBE Steve Smith). You can't pass judgment on Moss while the rest of the WRs equally haven't produced. Throw Moss in as the number one WR and I guarantee that he produces more than Hixon.

Even if Hixon gets bumped from the 1st WR spot (cross your fingers, because that means one of the new guys kicks-in sooner rather than later), he still has value to the team as a kick returner. In the meantime, he has decent speed, is capable of getting open, and is taller than Moss. Moss, meanwhile has not only been passed by Hixon, but also Smith, who was also drafted later than Moss.

 

I don't agree that he should get more chances due to his injuries his first few seasons. Not because injuries don't happen, but because Moss has shown himself to be injury-prone even in college. It's not the exception for him, it's the rule.

[Nas]

I usually agree with what Storm says, but Im with ya on this one. Moss is no good.

 

 

 

Sorry Storm.

 

When it comes to Giants football, the very few times (once or twice) I disagreed with Jim, I was wrong...

[Allstarjim]

And neither is Domenik Hixon, which was my point in the first fucking place. But Jim decided to read what he wanted to read. Not my fault.

 

EVERY receiver we have on this team is only on this team based on potential alone (minus, MAYBE Steve Smith). You can't pass judgment on Moss while the rest of the WRs equally haven't produced. Throw Moss in as the number one WR and I guarantee that he produces more than Hixon.

 

 

Dude, I read the WHOLE thread before posting. You made a lot of unfounded assertions. You DO realize that BOTH of Moss' TD's last year came against Seattle week 3 after the game was decided, right? Garbage time, Storm. If Moss was the number one in our system, not only would we be in trouble, but you would be wrong on your guarantee, because Hixon would produce more. But Moss has never earned it has he? He's never shown the coaches enough to get him in there consistently.

 

And let enough perfect passes drop out of his hands or hit him in the helmet?

 

Unfounded assertion #1. Hixon had one high profile drop. He did a pretty good job. If you had expectations that he (or anyone else in last year's crop) were going to produce Plaxico type numbers, you had unrealistic expectations. During those last 7 games last year, Hixon was still the most productive receiver we had, more than Smith or Toomer.

 

He had 7 games to start and accumulated a whopping 30 catches and a touchdown. That's production Steve Smith got as a number 3.

 

See above, Hixon produced more while he was the #1 than Steve Smith, despite Steve Smith being Eli's third down go to receiver.

 

 

 

 

I'll tell you what... instead of beating this drum about Moss' inability to ever make it as a top receiver in ours or anyone else's system... go back to my first post in this thread and you tell me how I'm wrong in my points of 1-7 of the things Moss can't do, and you tell me how he would overcome being 5'8" and still be a quality #1 receiver or even a receiver who could contribute more than any of the other 5 receivers I mentioned (Hixon, Smith, Manningham, Nicks, Barden), despite Moss receiving more playing time than David Tyree a guy whose best 5 games exceeds Moss' best game of his career.

 

Just tell me based on logic or anything other than the fact that he was a 2nd round pick which means nothing.

[Allstarjim]

If he produces like he did as a starter last year, he can be our #1...but he'd be something like the 30th best #1 WR in the league. Not great, but if the rest of the offense can step up its definitely a level of production we can live with. Plax wasn't good for much more than 70 catches a year anyway. We missed him more in the running game than through the air.

 

I think getting lost in the Hixon-Moss comparison is that they're both about the same age, and in terms of raw talent are not that different. Moss is .1 seconds faster in the 40, Hixon is 4 inches taller...take your pick. These guys are both damn quick. Moss went to a major college and had the NFL pedigree so he went in the 2nd round. Hixon went to Akron, so he was a 4th rounder. Then he had a mental breakdown after Kevin Everett got paralyzed trying to tackle him and consequently was prematurely cut by the Broncos, which I think gave a lot of us the false impression (initially, myself included) that Hixon was just some journeyman, bouncing mid-season from team to team. How does a 2nd rounder with loads of physical talent get beaten out by a scrub (never mind that he's being beaten out by everyone else too)?...simple, Hixon isn't a scrub.

 

 

Exactly... everything here is good analysis. I felt the same way as you about Hixon coming from Denver.

 

And I agree, I don't think he's going to be a top #1 in the NFL. I don't think he's the long term solution. It's just that he can hold down the fort until Barden or Nicks takes it from him, and then he can still return kicks very well and give us value there, plus provide insurance should he need to step up again.

 

The way I see our offense this year, everybody is freaking out over not having a Plaxico kind of a guy, and they don't need to! Eli is going to spread the ball around. You know who I think has a good chance of being our #1 receiver this year? Kevin Boss. I see about 4 or 5 guys getting about 40-60 receptions each, and that's ok... we are a running team first, and if we get down the field and punch it in, that's all that matters.

[Allstarjim]

When it comes to Giants football, the very few times (once or twice) I disagreed with Jim, I was wrong...

 

Thanks for the props Nas... but I've been wrong before... just not this time.

 

I remember saying that Amani should've been let go a couple of seasons ago... that was pre-mature, Amani still had some left in the tank and I don't think we would've gone to the SuperBowl without his efforts.

 

I also thought that Eli was the wrong pick for us... that we should've traded down and picked up Roethlisberger or just stood pat with Rivers. Instead, Eli is perfect for the Giants. And I was a little impatient with him, too. In my defense though, Rivers and Roethlisberger have turned into pretty good QB's as well, but I wouldn't change anything. Eli is the right guy for us.

[NightFire]

As for Tyree, you can never have too many good special teams players. Especially when you're filling out the bottom part of your receiver corps. Those are the guy whose greatest contributions should be on special teams, Storm!

 

If Moss were to make this team, what realistically do you think his contribution will be? He will not start. He will not be a slot guy because Manningham has the edge on him there. And Barden and Nicks are already considered the future of this football team and will need work in their rookie years to develop them. In fact, Nicks might push Hixon down to the slot receiver by midseason... where would Moss be then?

 

So if he's your 5th or 6th receiver, and he's not the future of your team... then why are you so insistent that he deserves a spot? So he can contribute his 15 catches and maybe a score or two in mop up duty? That's ridiculous. Tyree will at least be a good gunner, and we all know he's answered the call before when he's seen playing time.... it wasn't just the helmet catch, it was the 1st half touchdown. It's the other times during the season he's taken the field in very limited action and played very well. In fact, you show me Tyree's top 4 receiving performances with the Giants, a guy who's had FAR less opportunity to play as a receiver than Moss, and I'll show you 4 better games than Moss has ever had with the Giants.

 

This is why I hope the Giants wise up and keep Tyree and cut Moss. Tyree may not make an impact at WR but neither will Moss. At least Tyree can do something else though. Moss has had chances on ST also and has been a disappointment as usual. Droughns was kept around for ST so I hope the Giants do the same for Tyree. Also practice potential is the biggest bullshit ever as Tyree never does well in practice. Hell he dropped all his passes in SB practice and then played amazing when it mattered (hell behind Manning he was the offensive MVP and our MB banner).

 

Let me guess...you also had a man-crush on Tim Carter.

 

I think Carter is on the Rams now.