Storm Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Again, that's not for you to decide. I suppose that if you ever go to jail for something and someone wanted to hire you upon you finishing your time, it would be ok with you if other people that had no stake in the matter decided if you could actually get the job, right? Ray Lewis, Pacman Jones, and hundreds of others have been connected to crimes against human beings and have been given second chances. And the NFL has not only survived, but thrived. We are a forgiving society that believes in second chances. Although he did something terrible, he should not be denied a chance to earn a living so long as the commissioner and the owners who are interested in hiring him want him in the league. Bottom line, it is the commissioner's call to make, and he has already been reinstated. But say the commissioner banned him for life as you suggested. I guarantee you that the NFLPA would litigate and the NFL would lose in arbitration. So long as a man can work, he is a free man, as Vick is, and someone is willing to pay him, as NFL owners are, the opportunity should not be denied of him to earn a living. Playing in the NFL is just as much of a privilege as anyone working for any other company is a privilege so long as you are willing and able to do the job. Yah, actually, that would be fine with me, because that's the way it would work for me and everyone else in this society. If I went to jail on federal charges and came out, I would totally expect people to be biased against me. If I was a teacher when I went in, I would totally understand why people wouldn't want me to be a teacher when I got out. And you forget, Michael Vick was put in jail by a jury, people who had nothing to do with him or his case. It's up to others to decide what's privilege and what's right. Obviously, I'm sure the NFL will decide that it's Michael Vick's RIGHT to play football because he "served his time" (and, by that I mean Michael Vick can make the league money), but what I'm trying to convey to you is that isn't the way it works for the rest of us, and that's wrong. And besides, you're the one talking about athlete's being different than the average Joe. They SHOULD be held to higher standards. Other people SHOULD be judging them, not letting them off the hook. These guys are guys kids look up to, and I know how lame and stereotypical that sounds, because I know NFL players didn't ask for that, but it doesn't make it any less true. It SHOULD become the NFL's position to keep low morals and criminal behavior off the football field. Mike Vick, Ray Lewis, Adam Jones, Donte Stallworth, and countless others should have all been banned from the NFL permanently. Ray Lewis and Pacman Jones got second chances, but they should be working at Wal-Marts. That's making a living. And that's where I'd be making a living if I went to jail on federal charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treehugger Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 To put it another way, if he was not able to go back to work with an employer who was willing to hire him, you would have to question whether or not we live in a supposed free society. The man has completed his sentence imposed on him for committing his crimes. He should be able to go on and be able to work anywhere he can find it. Exactly. Vick's issue is a PR one, not a criminal one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ppodlesny Posted July 28, 2009 Author Share Posted July 28, 2009 I am thinking some team will take a chance on him, he will be a back up at best...if I had to guess I am thinking Oakland...are there any owners out there that hate dogs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 To put it another way, if he was not able to go back to work with an employer who was willing to hire him, you would have to question whether or not we live in a supposed free society. The man has completed his sentence imposed on him for committing his crimes. He should be able to go on and be able to work anywhere he can find it. No, dude. Playing a game for millions of dollars is a privilege. He wouldn't be allowed to work thousands of jobs but since he can run and throw while doing nothing else for society but abusing his privileges, he's off the hook. It's a fucking tragedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fringe Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 I am thinking some team will take a chance on him, he will be a back up at best...if I had to guess I am thinking Oakland...are there any owners out there that hate dogs? you're way off. Al loves Demarcus, he wouldn't bring in competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ppodlesny Posted July 28, 2009 Author Share Posted July 28, 2009 you're way off. Al loves Demarcus, he wouldn't bring in competition. Yeah I know he does...which is why I said Vick would be a backup..but I can't think of any other team that would take a chance on him...Minnesota maybe? I dont know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allstarjim Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Storm, I don't get why you brought up the bit about a jury... I mean, that is the legal process. But regardless, Vick WAS NOT put in jail by a jury, he was put in jail by a judge. Vick plead guilty to the charges, hence no reason for a jury to hear the case. What I'm trying to convey to you is that if you were a professional athlete or a movie star, IT WOULD WORK that way for you. Because you have skills that are in demand. That's the point. If you were a teacher or something, sure, they could tell you to fuck off, because there are new teachers coming out of university every year, and many more that have the ability to take your job. Plus, your school wouldn't be trying to go to the SuperBowl. I'm trying to tell you that in a free society, once you have finished your time, if you can find a job at Wal-Mart, the NFL, or with a Fortune 500 company, if they are satisfied that you will not embarrass the organization and are willing to hire you, you should be allowed to go to work... it's not fair for others to decide after you have paid your debt to society whether or not you can make a living again. Yours and my morals and setting an example, yada, yada, yada... doesn't matter unless you are the one signing the checks. That is THEIR decision to make for their organization. I have no problem with the NFL giving second chances as long as the players have paid their debts. What is wrong is for players to be unpunished under the law and get to continue to play... like Ray Lewis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allstarjim Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Don't think Minny, because I think Favre will come out of retirement and play there. Jacksonville, Seattle, Oakland, or maybe even a team like the Chiefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fringe Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Yeah I know he does...which is why I said Vick would be a backup..but I can't think of any other team that would take a chance on him...Minnesota maybe? I dont know. Garcia's the backup- I heard maybe Pittsburgh or Baltimore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ppodlesny Posted July 28, 2009 Author Share Posted July 28, 2009 Garcia's the backup- I heard maybe Pittsburgh or Baltimore I Charlies Batch was the backup in Pitts? Not sure about Baltimore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treehugger Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Even Vick is too petty a criminal to play in Baltimore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fringe Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 I Charlies Batch was the backup in Pitts? Not sure about Baltimore yeah but both teams are good organizations with positive influences. and pitt's head coach knows vick well and there's the whole slash history. it's all just talking heads making conjectures at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBLUE01 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 So what you're saying is that Vick is better than everyone else because he's an athlete. Nice logic. "Doing time" extends passed the time you did in jail. He obviously has character flaws and really doesn't deserve another shot in the NFL. Not to mention, he got off easy on his sentence. Not to mention, he's been rotting away for the last couple years, he's really no longer an NFL caliber athlete. Some team, in a move to sell tickets (like the Bills and TO), will pick him up, but it's almost guaranteed he will never start in the NFL again. He should have never been starting in the NFL in the first place. As a person who's done time, I cant tell you just how WRONG you are about this. What are you not understanding in the sentence..."did his TIME" ? The only people who should never be off the hook, are child molesters, rapists and murderers. Everyone else makes a mistake, gets punishment and does some sort of time. When they pay their debt to society...theyre done. They deserve a second chance. Animal cruelty is bad, but dogs fighting happens on a daily basis. Just not in an organized ring. The profiting was the real bad thing about this. He grew up being taught this was normal. He realized it isnt, and he paid his debt and is sorry. You sound like someone who has never even jaywalked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Storm, I don't get why you brought up the bit about a jury... I mean, that is the legal process. But regardless, Vick WAS NOT put in jail by a jury, he was put in jail by a judge. Vick plead guilty to the charges, hence no reason for a jury to hear the case. What I'm trying to convey to you is that if you were a professional athlete or a movie star, IT WOULD WORK that way for you. Because you have skills that are in demand. That's the point. If you were a teacher or something, sure, they could tell you to fuck off, because there are new teachers coming out of university every year, and many more that have the ability to take your job. Plus, your school wouldn't be trying to go to the SuperBowl. I'm trying to tell you that in a free society, once you have finished your time, if you can find a job at Wal-Mart, the NFL, or with a Fortune 500 company, if they are satisfied that you will not embarrass the organization and are willing to hire you, you should be allowed to go to work... it's not fair for others to decide after you have paid your debt to society whether or not you can make a living again. Yours and my morals and setting an example, yada, yada, yada... doesn't matter unless you are the one signing the checks. That is THEIR decision to make for their organization. I have no problem with the NFL giving second chances as long as the players have paid their debts. What is wrong is for players to be unpunished under the law and get to continue to play... like Ray Lewis. Oh, I forgot he plead, you're right! I just brought it up because you said you didn't think it was right that strangers are judging him when that happens in the courtroom every day...but it's moot now. I understand what you're saying, he's paid his debt and all, I just can't get over the fact that if you or I made a million dollars a year, as, say a banker, if we went to jail for fraud or financing dog fights, you can bet that we won't be making a million dollars once we get out...I just don't feel it's right that because this guy is a pro athlete he gets to return to what he's doing when it's obvious he abused his privilege and spent his earnings on illegal activities in the first place... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBLUE01 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 you're way off. Al loves Demarcus, he wouldn't bring in competition. Ware went to the Raiders and became a QB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 As a person who's done time, I cant tell you just how WRONG you are about this. What are you not understanding in the sentence..."did his TIME" ? The only people who should never be off the hook, are child molesters, rapists and murderers. Everyone else makes a mistake, gets punishment and does some sort of time. When they pay their debt to society...theyre done. They deserve a second chance. Animal cruelty is bad, but dogs fighting happens on a daily basis. Just not in an organized ring. The profiting was the real bad thing about this. He grew up being taught this was normal. He realized it isnt, and he paid his debt and is sorry. You sound like someone who has never even jaywalked. Because doing time extends after you leave jail, it's not fair, but it's the way it works for average people. Doing time includes losing privileges that you had before you actually went to jail...such as having to wear a BAC monitor if you drove drunk....or not being able to work in a school if you're a child molester. If you're out on parole, you can't leave the state, etc. That's what I meant. And no, I sound like someone who is tired of famous people and athletes getting special treatment because they can throw a ball or look prettier than I do. I watch things like Celebrity Rehab and see all these people going out of their way to help some random dude who was on TV 12 years ago and think to myself how other people deserve such a chance but they won't ever be placed in rehab because they aren't famous enough and wouldn't be able to afford it. Mike Vick took his NFL earnings and used them to kill hundreds of dogs. He shouldn't be allowed to be put back in that position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBLUE01 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Because doing time extends after you leave jail, it's not fair, but it's the way it works for average people. Doing time includes losing privileges that you had before you actually went to jail...such as having to wear a BAC monitor if you drove drunk....or not being able to work in a school if you're a child molester. If you're out on parole, you can't leave the state, etc. That's what I meant. And no, I sound like someone who is tired of famous people and athletes getting special treatment because they can throw a ball or look prettier than I do. I watch things like Celebrity Rehab and see all these people going out of their way to help some random dude who was on TV 12 years ago and think to myself how other people deserve such a chance but they won't ever be placed in rehab because they aren't famous enough and wouldn't be able to afford it. Mike Vick took his NFL earnings and used them to kill hundreds of dogs. He shouldn't be allowed to be put back in that position. People who drink and drive wear a BAC monitor. Vick didnt drink and drive. And DUI is the ONLY charge where you would wear or put something on your vehicle to make sure you dont drink and drive again. Rich people get it, poor people get it. Vick held a dogfighting ring. He apologized, did time and took classes in jail pertaining to this stuff. He's done. DUI is the only charge where you would do something else, and your time is still over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 People who drink and drive wear a BAC monitor. Vick didnt drink and drive. And DUI is the ONLY charge where you would wear or put something on your vehicle to make sure you dont drink and drive again. Rich people get it, poor people get it. Vick held a dogfighting ring. He apologized, did time and took classes in jail pertaining to this stuff. He's done. DUI is the only charge where you would do something else, and your time is still over. Good luck getting a job if you went in on federal charges for anything. He's a sports superstar so it's OK, though. If I go to jail because they found out I was fighting dogs, I'd get out, try to apply for a job and have to check the yes box saying I've been convicted of a crime. By allowing Michael Vick to return to his million dollar job, you're taking away the stigma that goes with going to prison. That same stigma will haunt you your entire life if you aren't Mike Vick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBLUE01 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Good luck getting a job if you went in on federal charges for anything. He's a sports superstar so it's OK, though. If I go to jail because they found out I was fighting dogs, I'd get out, try to apply for a job and have to check the yes box saying I've been convicted of a crime. By allowing Michael Vick to return to his million dollar job, you're taking away the stigma that goes with going to prison. That same stigma will haunt you your entire life if you aren't Mike Vick. Oh, getting preferential treatment and doing your time are 2 different things bud. I see where youre goin now. His trade is football. If an owner wants to hire him, they will. Its not Vicks fault. When I did my time, it was for felony DUI. There were people who wouldnt hire me, and then there were people who would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fringe Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Ware went to the Raiders and became a QB? JaMarcus- scusez, monsieur perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Oh, getting preferential treatment and doing your time are 2 different things bud. I see where youre goin now. His trade is football. If an owner wants to hire him, they will. Its not Vicks fault. When I did my time, it was for felony DUI. There were people who wouldnt hire me, and then there were people who would. I'm not even saying that criminals don't deserve a second chance, in fact, I think it sucks that people ahve to check that box, lord knows even good people make mistakes (drunk driving being the number one culprit)...I just don't like the fact that it doesn't affect people like Michael Vick because all he can do is play football, because if he was doing a normal job, he'd have just as hard a time as I'm sure you did finding work.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBLUE01 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 I'm not even saying that criminals don't deserve a second chance, in fact, I think it sucks that people ahve to check that box, lord knows even good people make mistakes (drunk driving being the number one culprit)...I just don't like the fact that it doesn't affect people like Michael Vick because all he can do is play football, because if he was doing a normal job, he'd have just as hard a time as I'm sure you did finding work.... I don't think he'll get millions. He'll get the vet minimum somewhere, watch. Wait....thats like $300,000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 I don't think he'll get millions. He'll get the vet minimum somewhere, watch. Wait....thats like $300,000 haha, yah, that's what I'm saying! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allstarjim Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 I'm not even saying that criminals don't deserve a second chance, in fact, I think it sucks that people ahve to check that box, lord knows even good people make mistakes (drunk driving being the number one culprit)...I just don't like the fact that it doesn't affect people like Michael Vick because all he can do is play football, because if he was doing a normal job, he'd have just as hard a time as I'm sure you did finding work.... Yes but you are operating under a premise that he is not affected, when he was. He lost tens of millions of dollars, and the market for him IS greatly less than it would be if he was a free agent and this whole dogfighting thing never happened. He would've gotten a huge deal before this as a free agent and a starting quarterback job. Now he is likely looking at being a backup and only a few teams are even interested. Plus, he has lost sponsorships and is pretty untouchable in that regard now. So he's been affected, just as BIGBLUE's marketability was affected after his DUI. The pool of employers willing to hire him shrank because of that DUI, just as it has for Vick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxi-xxv Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Think about this. Leonoard Little KILLED a woman while driving a vehicle legally drunk. He served a minimal league suspension pre the personal conduct policy and AGAIN was arrested for operrating a vehicle under the influence of alcohol a few years later. Imagine if somehow Vick were found to be an ivestor in a dog fighting ring again? Essentially thats what it would take for him to be Leonard Little. With Vick all we can do is hope he learned his lesson. I will say this at least the man served a sentence and he did not kill a human(not that that lessens the heineous crimes he committed) like Little did and had so little regard for what he did he did it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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