Starting safeties

[xxi-xxv]

Luke Petitgout played many solid years for us, what are you talking about? He had an issue with false starts late in his career, and now he's just old and no longer in the league(that and he got nabbed with substance abuse suspension, and no one will sign him)...the majority of his career he spent in NY(7 years, most of them starting). EA has nothing but good things to say about Luke and about him being a cornerstone of those offenses and Tiki's resurgence in his book The GM. Soo...either you know something the entire organization didn't or are basing your opinion on the fact that he had a problem with penalties late in his career. Regardless, you're wrong Petitgout kept the QB on his feet and the running back going through gaps. That was his job.

 

And my gripe was with Boley's measly stats, the fact he's undersized, played for a horrible Hotlanta defense, and was replaced late last season. Then I look at the fact he was drafted in the 5th round and I'm not reassured. But I also trust our organization and front office.

 

And Phillips obviously doesn't suck.

 

Good try.

 

I have no issue with Pettigout, he was decent for the Giants for many years, he was not worth a 1st round pick in 99 IMO and is no David Diehl and never will be, but he was decent.

 

My point is that your idea that where a guy was picked should translate as to how often he plays or how good he is after a year or 2 in the league is silly. Take 1992 for example, the Giants used their 93 #1 pick to take Dave Brown in the supplemental draft of 1992, that same year in the 92 draft they took a qb in the 8th round in Kent Graham. Later in that same season when both Simms and Hoss got hurt they played Graham, the 8th rounder. WHy? Because despite the fact that Brown cost them a 93 #1, it was apparent he sucked. They later tried to force feed him to justify it, but it was clear that Graham was the better option. Same situation occured in 1993 with the Skins with Heath Shuler and 7th rounder Gus Frerrote.

 

Some of the leagues best players every were late rounders or undrafted free agents.

 

[Money]

Nothing is getting in Kenny Phillips' way this year. It's his job.

 

At SS, I think Brown is a bit better suited than Johnson, who seemed much more comfortable in the FS role with Butler doing the dirty work in the box. So I would guess Brown earns the starting spot, though all three guys will receive a starter's equivalent of playing time...

[Storm]

My bad, I answered if you said ANY NFL team.

 

 

Roy Williams got burned alot. My only memory of R Williams isnt only the Shockey one. What about the Toomer TD in the Dallas playoff game our SB yr? WTF was he doing diving the other way? I mean other than horsecollaring, I dont recall much from R Williams ever. Johnson already looks to have more talent than Roy ever had.

 

He's a 5 time Pro Bowler...

[Storm]

I have no issue with Pettigout, he was decent for the Giants for many years, he was not worth a 1st round pick in 99 IMO and is no David Diehl and never will be, but he was decent.

 

My point is that your idea that where a guy was picked should translate as to how often he plays or how good he is after a year or 2 in the league is silly. Take 1992 for example, the Giants used their 93 #1 pick to take Dave Brown in the supplemental draft of 1992, that same year in the 92 draft they took a qb in the 8th round in Kent Graham. Later in that same season when both Simms and Hoss got hurt they played Graham, the 8th rounder. WHy? Because despite the fact that Brown cost them a 93 #1, it was apparent he sucked. They later tried to force feed him to justify it, but it was clear that Graham was the better option. Same situation occured in 1993 with the Skins with Heath Shuler and 7th rounder Gus Frerrote.

 

Some of the leagues best players every were late rounders or undrafted free agents.

 

And a majority of the league's best players were 1-3rd round picks. A farrrr greater number, man. You can't just pick out a few exceptional 5th round on picks and say that where they were picked never matters. It's simply not true.

 

Luke Petitgout was just as good a left tackle as David Diehl. Diehl was far better at guard, his original position.

[fishgutmartyr]

Um, being an offensive lineman, 7 years in the league is pretty good.

 

Like I said, the Giants stuck with Petitgout for 7 years. That's all the evidence I need that he was a good player, not to mention growing up watching those teams. Not to mention Accorsi, like I said credits Petitgout for Collins 2000 season and Barber's turnaround.

 

7 years is 7 years. 4 of them (That's over half, or when does "late in his career" become "most of his career?") were spent running after DEs, or false-starting. It's just as likely we stuck with him because the rest of the line was even worse, or Accorsi didn't want to admit spending too much for the guy when they re-did his contract.

 

Accorsi credits Petitgout for Barber's turnaround? How? Did he teach him how to hold on to a ball? What about the two years he was a LT before 2004? And Luke wasn't even a LT in 2000, so I'm not sure where the Collins thing comes into play. Sounds like a guy trying to justify a first round pick to me...

 

I'm not even saying the guy sucked, just that I agree with what Reese said about him. A mediocre tackle, and as time has shown, obviously replaceable.

 

Luke Petitgout was just as good a left tackle as David Diehl. Diehl was far better at guard, his original position.

 

Petitgout was drafted in the first round as a tackle. By what you are arguing, you should never be making that statement.

[BIGBLUE01]

He's a 5 time Pro Bowler...

 

Awesome. Now do you think you could furnish me with info that matters? Pro Bowl is a glorified popularity contest. Roy Williams and his 5 Pro Bowls........stink. Always have.

[Storm]

7 years is 7 years. 4 of them (That's over half, or when does "late in his career" become "most of his career?") were spent running after DEs, or false-starting. It's just as likely we stuck with him because the rest of the line was even worse, or Accorsi didn't want to admit spending too much for the guy when they re-did his contract.

 

Accorsi credits Petitgout for Barber's turnaround? How? Did he teach him how to hold on to a ball? What about the two years he was a LT before 2004? And Luke wasn't even a LT in 2000, so I'm not sure where the Collins thing comes into play. Sounds like a guy trying to justify a first round pick to me...

 

I'm not even saying the guy sucked, just that I agree with what Reese said about him. A mediocre tackle, and as time has shown, obviously replaceable.

 

 

 

Petitgout was drafted in the first round as a tackle. By what you are arguing, you should never be making that statement.

 

Dude, you aren't the front office. Sorry. You lose. And what I'm saying is Diehl is far better at guard than he is at tackle and I should have said Luke was as good, if not better at that position. And btw Petigout was drafted to play RIGHT TACKLE, which is a far different position. He was switched to left tackle because he was good and the rest of the line sucked. He wasn't trying to justify the pick because he rips on a lot of other picks he's made throughout the entire book. He rips on Brad Maynard like hell, Ron Dixon, Dave Brown, all the running backs we drafted in the early nineties after Hampton, stating we had to rely on a fullback (Charles Way) to get any yards on the ground.

 

He built our Super Bowl team, I'd say he knows a little bit more about talent than you do. Petitgout was a very solid player who gets shit on because he was playing for a team that had Jim Fassel as a coach. Committing penalties, especially false starts, is a sign of not instilling discipline on the part of the coaches. And Jim Fassel was one of the worst head coaches I have ever seen.

 

And btw, Petitgout was in the league 8 years. 7 of them with the Giants, pretty much all of them as a starter, I'd say 5 years can be considered most of his career.

 

He blocked for Barber, you nut. Running backs suck if they don't have good run blocking. And if I recall, I remember Collins being completely immobile, holding on to the ball tpo long, and never one to throw the ball away. Call that Petitgout's fault, but I call it being a poor quarterback.

 

If you take Petitgout and put him on this team as a 3rd or 4th year pro, he starts at left tackle. Diehl is at guard.

[Storm]

Awesome. Now do you think you could furnish me with info that matters? Pro Bowl is a glorified popularity contest. Roy Williams and his 5 Pro Bowls........stink. Always have.

 

Yah because coaches and players select poor players to the Pro Bowl.

 

I forgot, Justin Tuck, Osi Umenyiora, Jeff Feagles, Tiki Barber, all got to Pro Bowls because of their popularity.

 

He had 5 interceptions twice in his career. When was the last time a Giants CORNERBACK, let alone a Giants safety had a 5 interception season. You're being a Giants homer.

[BIGBLUE01]

Yah because coaches and players select poor players to the Pro Bowl.

 

I forgot, Justin Tuck, Osi Umenyiora, Jeff Feagles, Tiki Barber, all got to Pro Bowls because of their popularity.

 

He had 5 interceptions twice in his career. When was the last time a Giants CORNERBACK, let alone a Giants safety had a 5 interception season. You're being a Giants homer.

 

Oh no, Im not weraing the blue colored glasses this morning, Im being real. So, Roy had 5 picks twice in his career? Cool, can you name any other standout accomplishments by Roy? Didnt think so. All I meant from the beginning is that Johnson is not as bad as you say, and has a tremendous upside, and he's young. He could have 6 picks in a season, we don't know. We do know that R Williams hasnt done much of anything besides those picks. And the only reason I brought Roy up, was because I misread your post. I thought yu meant Johnson couldnt start for any NFL team.

[Storm]

Oh no, Im not weraing the blue colored glasses this morning, Im being real. So, Roy had 5 picks twice in his career? Cool, can you name any other standout accomplishments by Roy? Didnt think so. All I meant from the beginning is that Johnson is not as bad as you say, and has a tremendous upside, and he's young. He could have 6 picks in a season, we don't know. We do know that R Williams hasnt done much of anything besides those picks. And the only reason I brought Roy up, was because I misread your post. I thought yu meant Johnson couldnt start for any NFL team.

 

You mean aside from his run stuffing abilities as a safety and the fact Dallas's defenses during his years were pretty good, especially their secondaries?

 

I would take Roy Williams right now over Michael Johnson, no questions asked.

[boohyah]

For all the hype surrounding him, how he was going to change the safety position, Roy Williams flat out sucks.

 

In fact, I think he's Shaun Williams and he just changed his name to Roy.

[BIGBLUE01]

You mean aside from his run stuffing abilities as a safety and the fact Dallas's defenses during his years were pretty good, especially their secondaries?

 

I would take Roy Williams right now over Michael Johnson, no questions asked.

 

 

You would?

Roy Williams WAS far better than Michael Johnson, man. Maybe not anymore. Your exposure to him was Shockey owning him back a few years ago...didn't mean everyone owned him...

 

So, you would take the worse safety of the two to start in our backfield?

[Storm]

You would?

 

 

So, you would take the worse safety of the two to start in our backfield?

 

Would I take a defensive playmaker who can cause turnovers as opposed a guy who wiffs on tackles, over commits to the run, is lost in pass coverage, and only looked semi-decent because we have a dominant defensive line? Of course.

 

Like I said Michael Johnson is a raw talent.

 

He would definitely not be starting over Roy Williams if they were both in Dallas right now.

 

You could have at least chosen a safety who actually sucks like Deon Grant or something.

 

And IMO, we should have signed Sean Jones, but unfortunately, the Eagles were far smarter than us in that respect and snatched him leaving us with CC Brown(Who?)

[BIGBLUE01]

Would I take a defensive playmaker who can cause turnovers as opposed a guy who wiffs on tackles, over commits to the run, is lost in pass coverage, and only looked semi-decent because we have a dominant defensive line? Of course.

 

Like I said Michael Johnson is a raw talent.

 

He would definitely not be starting over Roy Williams if they were both in Dallas right now.

 

You could have at least chosen a safety who actually sucks like Deon Grant or something.

 

And IMO, we should have signed Sean Jones, but unfortunately, the Eagles were far smarter than us in that respect and snatched him leaving us with CC Brown(Who?)

 

You're confusing me Storm. Do you think R Williams is good NOW? Because I clearly pointed out that you think he is not good now, and Johnson is better. You said it up above where I quoted. And R Williams CAUSED, not causes.......CAUSED turnovers. As far as the Johnson description, if thats what you see well, then I cant help you. Whiffs on tackles? lost in pass coverage??(I think p.c is his best ability). Maybe over commits on the run, but all of those? Who are you watching?

[Storm]

You're confusing me Storm. Do you think R Williams is good NOW? Because I clearly pointed out that you think he is not good now, and Johnson is better. You said it up above where I quoted. And R Williams CAUSED, not causes.......CAUSED turnovers. As far as the Johnson description, if thats what you see well, then I cant help you. Whiffs on tackles? lost in pass coverage??(I think p.c is his best ability). Maybe over commits on the run, but all of those? Who are you watching?

 

He's been hurt, IDK if he's good now...

 

I watched a pretty awful set of safeties in James Butler and Michael Johnson, and neither one of those guys should have ever been starters on the NYG.

[BIGBLUE01]

He's been hurt, IDK if he's good now...

 

I watched a pretty awful set of safeties in James Butler and Michael Johnson, and neither one of those guys should have ever been starters on the NYG.

 

Totally agreed on Butler. Awful, and slow too. IDK, I watched alot of M Johnson at U of A so maybe that's why he stuck out to me on the Giants, but I thought he was good.

[fishgutmartyr]

Dude, you aren't the front office. Sorry. You lose. And what I'm saying is Diehl is far better at guard than he is at tackle and I should have said Luke was as good, if not better at that position. And btw Petigout was drafted to play RIGHT TACKLE, which is a far different position.

Don't recall claiming to be in the front office. On the other hand, I don't see your picture on the staff page either. So stop with the "you lose" stupidity.

 

The bottom line: Petitgout was drafted in the first round to play a tackle; Diehl was drafted in the 5th round to be a guard. It's a harder to switch from guard to tackle. So at BEST, you are damning Luke with faint praise, particularly with your contention that a first rounder is by definition better than a lower-round player. You should be able to say that Luke blew Diehl away as tackle, and you can't.

He was switched to left tackle because he was good and the rest of the line sucked.

That's different than

7 years is 7 years. 4 of them (That's over half, or when does "late in his career" become "most of his career?") were spent running after DEs, or false-starting. It's just as likely we stuck with him because the rest of the line was even worse, or Accorsi didn't want to admit spending too much for the guy when they re-did his contract.

how? Oh and did you notice? I didn't declare that as a fact, just as a possibility.

He wasn't trying to justify the pick because he rips on a lot of other picks he's made throughout the entire book. He rips on Brad Maynard like hell, Ron Dixon, Dave Brown, all the running backs we drafted in the early nineties after Hampton, stating we had to rely on a fullback (Charles Way) to get any yards on the ground.

Ernie was assistant general manager until 1998. Maynard was drafted 1997, but if he was responsible, he should be embarrassed. Accorsi wasn't even on the team until 1994, so ripping the Dave Brown pick (1992) must have been a real gut-check.

He built our Super Bowl team, I'd say he knows a little bit more about talent than you do. Petitgout was a very solid player who gets shit on because he was playing for a team that had Jim Fassel as a coach. Committing penalties, especially false starts, is a sign of not instilling discipline on the part of the coaches. And Jim Fassel was one of the worst head coaches I have ever seen.

I'm not on this thread arguing with EA, I'm on it with you. And you've completely removed Reese and Coughlin from the picture.

 

I've had tons of arguments with Midas about Fassel--but there's no way he's one of the worst head coaches I've ever seen, not even one of the worst Giant's coaches I've ever seen. Come on, not even the worst Giant's coach of the 90's.

And btw, Petitgout was in the league 8 years. 7 of them with the Giants, pretty much all of them as a starter, I'd say 5 years can be considered most of his career.

The 8th season in Tampa was 4 games and injured reserve. Awesome. 5 years of false starts, and getting beat by DEs. My error.

He blocked for Barber, you nut.

So did Ian Allen, so what? What is it with you and name calling, anyway? Do you earn points to get some prize?

Running backs suck if they don't have good run blocking. And if I recall, I remember Collins being completely immobile, holding on to the ball too long, and never one to throw the ball away. Call that Petitgout's fault, but I call it being a poor quarterback.

 

If you take Petitgout and put him on this team as a 3rd or 4th year pro, he starts at left tackle. Diehl is at guard.

Petitgout was a decent run blocker. I agree about Collins being immobile, but holding on to the ball too long and not throwing the ball away I don't remember happening. Throwing it stupidly down the middle of the field, yes.

It's not like any of this would have been a mystery to Petitgout, now, would it? Besides, if this was all on Collins, it would have stopped at the latest with Manning playing, right? We'll just ignore that the Titans managed with Collins...

I don't think Petitgout starts on this line. He probably doesn't get signed as a FA. And he definitely doesn't get the contract Accorsi signed him for.

[Allstarjim]

I don't think a fair assessment can be made of Johnson yet. However, I will say this about him... if he sucked as bad as Storm is saying, it was not seen by the other members of this board. Where as we all remember seeing Butler screw up and get burned. What I'm saying is that if Johnson really sucked, it should've been plainly evident and it wasn't.

 

But Roy Williams? Why are we even talking about that dude. There is one word that is synonymous with Roy Williams - overrated. He made the Pro Bowl because he was a high draft pick and played with a star on his helmet. He had a couple of big hits early, too that helped give him a reputation. But the one theme of his career is that he looked more like James Butler in coverage than Jack Tatum or Ronnie Lott.

 

Can we talk about Giants players without bringing up a stooge like Roy Williams?

[Allstarjim]

I remember Petitgout being a very good run blocker and a decent pass blocker. In retrospect, it's hard to say he was a first round tackle talent. I also remember Petitgout having a lot of false starts some years, and back problems. Overall, he was a pretty good talent. I think when it is all said and done Diehl will be considered the better OL than Luke. I do have respect for what Luke has done. But Diehl came in, got switched from guard to the toughest position athletically to play on the OL, and has done pretty well. He has not been Pro Bowl material, but he has been pretty good, has been pretty injury free, and has not hurt the team with a bunch of penalties.

 

I also think our line would be even better if we acquired a top tackle talent to play LT and moved Diehl back to guard. Our line would be incredible should that happen, and really it's incredible now with Diehl where he's at, but it would take it to a dominating level.

 

As for Collins, the year that he led the league in fumbles our offensive line SUCKED so bad it was embarrassing. There is no disputing that. It was not all on Kerry. He did a pretty good job for us and had he had a good line the majority of is time with us, he would probably be considered as one of the most prolific passers on the Giants in modern history. But that line couldn't keep him upright, it was a travesty.

[BIGBLUE01]

I don't think a fair assessment can be made of Johnson yet. However, I will say this about him... if he sucked as bad as Storm is saying, it was not seen by the other members of this board. Where as we all remember seeing Butler screw up and get burned. What I'm saying is that if Johnson really sucked, it should've been plainly evident and it wasn't.

 

But Roy Williams? Why are we even talking about that dude. There is one word that is synonymous with Roy Williams - overrated. He made the Pro Bowl because he was a high draft pick and played with a star on his helmet. He had a couple of big hits early, too that helped give him a reputation. But the one theme of his career is that he looked more like James Butler in coverage than Jack Tatum or Ronnie Lott.

 

Can we talk about Giants players without bringing up a stooge like Roy Williams?

 

That was my bad Jim. I was answering Storm, and I had it in my mind that he said Johnson couldnt start for any NFL team. He meant that Johnson shouldnt be starting on any GIANTS team. I brought up R Williams because if Roy Williams istarting, then by golly Micahel Johnson is starter material. Totally agree on your assessment on Williams though.

[Nesta]

Johnson played decently for a young guy. Yeah a couple of wiffed tackles standout, most notably the Westbrook wiff. But seriously, who hasn't wiffed on Westbrook?

 

He hasn't shown anything that would make me think he can't handle the job. That's the great thing about the Brown signing. We already know we have two guys who can start, now we get a young 4 year starter pushing those two for a job. We're gonna get the best from somebody for damn sure.

[xxi-xxv]

And a majority of the league's best players were 1-3rd round picks. A farrrr greater number, man. You can't just pick out a few exceptional 5th round on picks and say that where they were picked never matters. It's simply not true.

 

Luke Petitgout was just as good a left tackle as David Diehl. Diehl was far better at guard, his original position.

 

David Diehl played tackle in college and as late as this past summer was quoted in a radio interview as saying his best and most comfortable position is tackle. I suppose since he was a 5th round pick you pay these facts no mind.

[CrazedDogs]

wow...I can't believe there were actually two votes for the Phillips-free backfield.

[BIGBLUE01]

wow...I can't believe there were actually two votes for the Phillips-free backfield.

 

I was one of em. Dont get me wrong, I love Kenny. I just thought maybe the two with the most experience would start. Apparently theyre gonna battle it out in camp, and the two who impress most, start.

[Money]

BB01 ... register your fantasy baseball team already! The info is available in the other thread.