I predict Giants get Crabtree

[ppodlesny]

Ppod, using your logic, since we already have a good defense, a good QB, and a good running game, why not get a WR in the first round, especially if they think that they can get a good value LB in the second, which they probably will be able to do? I think the Giants agree with you and that's why they went out and addressed the defense with Boley, Bernard, and Canty. There isn't much LEFT to do but to get a dangerous WR to round this team out!

ASJ I see what you are saying, I just feel a reciver is better value in rounds 2 and later, that's me though...I think in round 1 given the depth that we have and the talent we have, best player available is probably where they will go (unless its QB of course) and I don't see any WR value at pick 29.

[ppodlesny]

You will not have much success on the ground without a deep threat.

 

WR in round one, cause you need points to win.

you mean kind of like the Baltimore Ravens?

[ppodlesny]

Well, ya don't win championships without them either. Look at the '08 Giants.

They lost because Gilbride forgot how to call plays...Jacobs was averaging over 5 yards per carry and he has Manning throwing the ball into the wind...Manning also had a wide open Steve Smith on the opening play of the game and he missed by 10 yards, then of course he had not trouble finding a wide open Asante Samuel. That had nothing to do with Burress not being there.

[fringe]

Ppod, using your logic, since we already have a good defense, a good QB, and a good running game, why not get a WR in the first round, especially if they think that they can get a good value LB in the second, which they probably will be able to do? I think the Giants agree with you and that's why they went out and addressed the defense with Boley, Bernard, and Canty. There isn't much LEFT to do but to get a dangerous WR to round this team out!

well you could trade your #1 for Boldin or another established receiver. look i don't watch that many college games but everytime i do i am amazed at the differences. the amount of space the receivers get is nothing like the pro game. it's very rare you're goint to get a WR who's ready to contribute in their first year. and we need someone to contribute from day one.

[Money]

you dont win championships with WR, look at the Patriots of two seasons ago...clearly had the best WRs in the league and the best QB and it did them no good with no time to set up their passing plays....you win with a tough defense, and a solid ground game, mixed in with a good passing game...if Manning could throw the ball accurately or at least better in the wind and Gilbride didnt lose his mind, the Giants would have beat Philly....a WR would not have made a squat of a difference in that game. Giants defense ranked 21st in the NFL on 3rd downs and that lead to why they lost....by the 4th quarter they were exhausted.

 

Look at the team that beat the Patriots: the Giants, who wouldn't have advanced to the Super Bowl -- let alone won -- without Plaxico Burress.

 

It's amusing whenever someone tries to expalin "this is how you win." In truth, there's a lot of ways to win ... anyone who says differently is just being a reductionist. The one common denominator in winning strategies is having good players at every position, including WR. Right now, without Plax, the Giants don't have enough good players on offense to win a championship. Our 2008 narrative speaks to that reality.

[BIGBLUE01]

well you could trade your #1 for Boldin or another established receiver. look i don't watch that many college games but everytime i do i am amazed at the differences. the amount of space the receivers get is nothing like the pro game. it's very rare you're goint to get a WR who's ready to contribute in their first year. and we need someone to contribute from day one.

 

Totally agreed blu. College is not as fast and the receivers dont get jammed at the line as often. They have so much space they need that time to adjust to the pros. I really hope they dont draft a WR first, I hope they put together a trade and get someone ready to contribute immediately.

[ppodlesny]

Look at the team that beat the Patriots: the Giants, who wouldn't have advanced to the Super Bowl -- let alone won -- without Plaxico Burress.

 

It's amusing whenever someone tries to expalin "this is how you win." In truth, there's a lot of ways to win ... anyone who says differently is just being a reductionist. The one common denominator in winning strategies is having good players at every position, including WR. Right now, without Plax, the Giants don't have enough good players on offense to win a championship. Our 2008 narrative speaks to that reality.

defense wins championships, always has, always will...when your defense ranks 21st in the NFL on 3rd downs you will lose important games because the defense can't get off the field. It wasn't the wide receivers who dropped the ball, Manning could hit them wide open in that playoff game.

[Money]

defense wins championships, always has, always will...when your defense ranks 21st in the NFL on 3rd downs you will lose important games because the defense can't get off the field. It wasn't the wide receivers who dropped the ball, Manning could hit them wide open in that playoff game.

 

No one thing wins championships. You have to be good in all phases of the game. Right now, our offense is pretty bad without a top-notch wideout; the plot of our season revealed that in no uncertain terms.

[ppodlesny]

No one thing wins championships. You have to be good in all phases of the game. Right now, our offense is pretty bad without a top-notch wideout; the plot of our season revealed that in no uncertain terms.

Baltimore Ravens

[fishgutmartyr]

you dont win championships with WR, look at the Patriots of two seasons ago...clearly had the best WRs in the league and the best QB and it did them no good with no time to set up their passing plays....you win with a tough defense, and a solid ground game, mixed in with a good passing game...if Manning could throw the ball accurately or at least better in the wind and Gilbride didnt lose his mind, the Giants would have beat Philly....a WR would not have made a squat of a difference in that game. Giants defense ranked 21st in the NFL on 3rd downs and that lead to why they lost....by the 4th quarter they were exhausted.

 

Not to say you're wrong, or even disagree with the need to bolster our defense, but the Pats of two years ago are a terrible example. 18 wins and one career-making drive away from a 19th doesn't exactly make a point of defense winning championships. Just sayin'...

 

At this point, if we walk away with a LB and WR on the first day (Best player available at the particular draft situation), I'll be content. Our Dline is actually stronger than it was in 2008 (no slight intended for Strahan). Our backfield is the stuff of legend compared to what was back there two years ago.

 

If we get killed next year on 3rd and long, it will be short, quick passes--very rarely are long balls going to get time to develop. Which is why I'd like to see another quick LB with some coverage skills.

 

And if I were DeOssie, I'd learn how to snap for field goals PDQ; and Alford might want to learn how to snap for punts. I'm betting one of them is gone by the end of camp.

 

[BIGBLUE01]

Baltimore Ravens

 

Beat me to it.

[CrazedDogs]

Baltimore Ravens

 

the '00 Ravens had kick ass special teams too.

[Money]

Baltimore Ravens

 

Won it in all three phases of the game. You might recall them jumping to an early led with Brandon Stokely, and then answering the Giants lone TD with a kick return by Jermaine Lewis.

 

Also, the legend of the terrible Ravens offense that year is totally overstated. They finished the year averaging 21 ppg, more than the team they would beat in the Super Bowl, the Giants.

 

Beyond that, you're really fooling yourself if you think the Ravens are a realistic model for success. I'll save you the suspense: we won't have the best defense to ever step on a football field next season, so we'll have to be able to score and plays specials if we expect to win a championship.

[ppodlesny]

Won it in all three phases of the game. You might recall them jumping to an early led with Brandon Stokely, and then answering the Giants lone TD with a kick return by Jermaine Lewis.

 

Also, the legend of the terrible Ravens offense that year is totally overstated. They finished the year averaging 21 ppg, more than the team they would beat in the Super Bowl, the Giants.

 

Beyond that, you're really fooling yourself if you think the Ravens are a realistic model for success. I'll save you the suspense: we won't have the best defense to ever step on a football field next season, so we'll have to be able to score and plays specials if we expect to win a championship.

 

The Baltimore Ravens concluded the 2000 NFL season with a 12-4 record, good for second place in the AFC central, and earning them a spot in the playoffs as a wild card entrant. The Ravens won three straight games in the AFC playoffs, culminating in a trip to Tampa for the Super Bowl, where they defeated the New York Giants, 34-7, to win their first championship.

 

The Ravens spent most of the off-season concerned with the status of their star linebacker Ray Lewis, who along with two other acquaintances, was arrested and charged with murder after an incident outside of an Atlanta nightclub on January 31, 2000. On June 5, a plea bargain was struck, and murder and aggravated assault charges were dropped in exchange for testimony against his companions. Lewis pleaded guilty to one count of obstruction of justice and was sentenced to a year of probation.

 

The Ravens started the season with a 5-1 start, with three of their victories coming by shutout. Despite the great play of the defense, the offense hit a major swoon after the first month of the season. Following a 37-0 victory over the Cincinnati Bengals, the Ravens would not score a touchdown for five consecutive games. The Ravens won the first two of these games thanks to their defense, but lost the next three, including a critical division loss at home to the Titans. During this game, quarterback Tony Banks was benched in favor of Trent Dilfer, who would take over for the rest of the season. After a loss at home to Pittsburgh, the Ravens broke both their touchdown-less streak and losing streak against the Bengals the next week. It would be the first of seven straight wins to end the season.

 

The Ravens finished one game behind the Tennessee Titans in the AFC central, so the Ravens had to begin their playoff run at home in the wild card round against the Broncos. The team cruised to a 21-3 victory, setting up a date with the Titans the following week in Nashville. The Ravens prevailed 24-10, thanks to linebacker Ray Lewis' 50 yard interception return for a touchdown that put the game away. The team then traveled to Oakland to meet the Raiders for the right to represent the AFC in the Super Bowl, and the Ravens advanced to their first, 16-3, as the defense held Oakland, the league's top rushing offense during the season, to just 24 yards rushing. The Ravens easily defeated the Giants in Super Bowl XXXV, 34-7, as Ray Lewis led another dominant performance by the defense and was named most valuable player of the game for his efforts.

 

The Ravens relied heavily on their defense, which set several records during the 2000 season, including fewest points allowed during a 16-game season (165) and fewest rushing yards allowed (970). The defense finished the season number one overall in both yards allowed and points allowed, and Ray Lewis was named defensive player of the year by the Associated Press. Starting cornerbacks Chris McAlister and Duane Starks combined to intercept ten passes, and defensive end Rob Burnett contributed with 10.5 sacks. The defense is thought of as one of the greatest ever. Offensively, the Ravens relied heavily on the running game. Rookie running back Jamal Lewis led the way with 1364 yards and veteran Priest Holmes added 588 yards. The passing game was rather pedestrian (23rd in yards passing), but Trent Dilfer brought stability to the position when he took over for Tony Banks mid-season. Tight end Shannon Sharpe, acquired as an unrestricted free agent from Denver during the offseason, was the team's leading pass receiver with 67 catches for 810 yards. Punt returner Jermaine Lewis scored two touchdowns on punt returns during the season, and ran back a kickoff in the Super Bowl, while placekicker Matt Stover made 35 field goals on 39 attempts.

[Money]

Although we are all very impressed by your ability to copy and paste, the Ravens midseason "swoon" means nothing in the narrative of their season. Their offense bounced back in big way during the second half, and made big plays throughout the postseason. Shannon Sharpe caught a 96-yard TD in Oakland. I realize that you might not know that despite being the Ravens biggest advocate outside of Art Modell, but I remember it like it was yesterday.

 

But yeah, keep believing that we should try to be like the Ravens of nine (!) years ago. Totally reasonable to go into a season expecting to allow 10 pts/game.

[Allstarjim]

defense wins championships, always has, always will...when your defense ranks 21st in the NFL on 3rd downs you will lose important games because the defense can't get off the field. It wasn't the wide receivers who dropped the ball, Manning could hit them wide open in that playoff game.

 

I kind of agree that defense wins championships in the sense that I think a championship team usually has a terrific defense, but I also agree with Money that you need a pretty good offense, too. It doesn't have to be a STELLAR offense, while you do need a stellar defense. But your offense does need to be capable and competent. Right now, with the stable of receivers we have, we do not have any threat of a pass to make other teams respect us.

 

What you are saying is that we should focus on the defense ad nauseum (that's the way it comes off to me, anyways). But if your offense can't stay on the field even the Ravens defense would've worn out and given up plays. It's a balance. A good offense can help your defense, and a bad one can be disastrous to even a good defense. It's why we have been so successful because of Brandon Jacobs. Jacobs not only punishes the defense with his physical runs, and wears them out that way, but he helps the Giants have long drives that keeps the opposing defense on the field a long time. But again, if you don't have good receivers, teams will just load up on the run and play one on one on the outside. We can't let that happen.

 

And I know you THINK we can get good value at WR in the second, but I think that is where we most disagree. I do think it's possible that you are right, but it's way more of a gamble. I don't know if you read the thread where I posted all the WR's from each draft for a three year stretch. The ones taken in the 1st round had a much higher rate of success in the NFL than in any other round. Even in the second, receivers didn't pan out nearly as well, and after that you were just trying to find a needle in a haystack looking for a good receiver. That is where we're at right now. With the pieces Reese has required, we need little to move forward on defense. A linebacker is really it. But we have a glaring hole on this team at receiver, and it is an important position. If we gamble and try to get one later and it doesn't work out, and our receiving corps is less than average this year, we will not make it to the SuperBowl, and that would be devastating considering all the talent we have on both sides of the ball at other important positions. We can't afford to gamble. We need a Boldin or Braylon, and/or a Britt or Nicks early in the draft. That's my 2.

 

And Money, I really love that you bring words like "inimitable" and "reductionist" to this board. Thanks for expanding our vocabularies!

[ppodlesny]

I kind of agree that defense wins championships in the sense that I think a championship team usually has a terrific defense, but I also agree with Money that you need a pretty good offense, too. It doesn't have to be a STELLAR offense, while you do need a stellar defense. But your offense does need to be capable and competent. Right now, with the stable of receivers we have, we do not have any threat of a pass to make other teams respect us.

 

What you are saying is that we should focus on the defense ad nauseum (that's the way it comes off to me, anyways). But if your offense can't stay on the field even the Ravens defense would've worn out and given up plays. It's a balance. A good offense can help your defense, and a bad one can be disastrous to even a good defense. It's why we have been so successful because of Brandon Jacobs. Jacobs not only punishes the defense with his physical runs, and wears them out that way, but he helps the Giants have long drives that keeps the opposing defense on the field a long time. But again, if you don't have good receivers, teams will just load up on the run and play one on one on the outside. We can't let that happen.

 

And I know you THINK we can get good value at WR in the second, but I think that is where we most disagree. I do think it's possible that you are right, but it's way more of a gamble. I don't know if you read the thread where I posted all the WR's from each draft for a three year stretch. The ones taken in the 1st round had a much higher rate of success in the NFL than in any other round. Even in the second, receivers didn't pan out nearly as well, and after that you were just trying to find a needle in a haystack looking for a good receiver. That is where we're at right now. With the pieces Reese has required, we need little to move forward on defense. A linebacker is really it. But we have a glaring hole on this team at receiver, and it is an important position. If we gamble and try to get one later and it doesn't work out, and our receiving corps is less than average this year, we will not make it to the SuperBowl, and that would be devastating considering all the talent we have on both sides of the ball at other important positions. We can't afford to gamble. We need a Boldin or Braylon, and/or a Britt or Nicks early in the draft. That's my 2.

 

And Money, I really love that you bring words like "inimitable" and "reductionist" to this board. Thanks for expanding our vocabularies!

I am not saying that you can't win without an offense, but I beilieve on offense it starts with a solid offenie line, a solid running attack and then the passing game. I think if the Giants are going to draft a WR it will be round 2, I think round 1 is way too high.

[ppodlesny]

Although we are all very impressed by your ability to copy and paste, the Ravens midseason "swoon" means nothing in the narrative of their season. Their offense bounced back in big way during the second half, and made big plays throughout the postseason. Shannon Sharpe caught a 96-yard TD in Oakland. I realize that you might not know that despite being the Ravens biggest advocate outside of Art Modell, but I remember it like it was yesterday.

 

But yeah, keep believing that we should try to be like the Ravens of nine (!) years ago. Totally reasonable to go into a season expecting to allow 10 pts/game.

yeah its those new skills I am working on, I am hoping it lands me one of those good payin jobs

[Money]

I am not saying that you can't win without an offense, but I beilieve on offense it starts with a solid offenie line, a solid running attack and then the passing game. I think if the Giants are going to draft a WR it will be round 2, I think round 1 is way too high.

 

The Giants already have the best OL and running game in football. They've added four defensive free agents. What other area of their team could they possibly improve outside of WR?

 

[fringe]

The Giants already have the best OL and running game in football. They've added four defensive free agents. What other area of their team could they possibly improve outside of WR?

you're right, but our needs at WR are more immediate than to allow for a rookie learning curve. better served by a trade for an established player.

[ppodlesny]

The Giants already have the best OL and running game in football. They've added four defensive free agents. What other area of their team could they possibly improve outside of WR?

I dont think you are understanding what I am saying...I am not saying they shouldn't get another receiver, what I am saying is there are no receivers at pick #29 value, unless crabtree were to fall to #29, which I doubt, I think that the rest of the group are all 2nd round material.

[Money]

you're right, but our needs at WR are more immediate than to allow for a rookie learning curve. better served by a trade for an established player.

 

I agree, which is why I was banging the Braylon Edwards drum long before the debate entered publuc discourse.

 

But if getting Edwards or Boldin is infeasible, then I think there are a number of WRs worth pick 29 (Nicks, Britt, maybe even Robiskie to name a few). This is where I disagree with ppodlsny, obviously. Maybe that player won't impact in 2009, but there are several guys who would absolutely fit into our long-term plans.

 

Still, my top preference would be dealing pick 29 for a top-notch WR (unless we can miraculously make a deal at a reduced cost). Think about it: if you're 1st round pick is an experienced Braylon Edwards, that's much better expected value than someone unproven like Darius Heyward-Bey or whoever...

[fringe]

I agree, which is why I was banging the Braylon Edwards drum long before the debate entered publuc discourse.

 

But if getting Edwards or Boldin is infeasible, then I think there are a number of WRs worth pick 29 (Nicks, Britt, maybe even Robiskie to name a few). This is where I disagree with ppodlsny, obviously. Maybe that player won't impact in 2009, but there are several guys who would absolutely fit into our long-term plans.

 

Still, my top preference would be dealing pick 29 for a top-notch WR (unless we can miraculously make a deal at a reduced cost). Think about it: if you're 1st round pick is an experienced Braylon Edwards, that's much better expected value than someone unproven like Darius Heyward-Bey or whoever...

edwards may even be a better choice than boldin because he has something to prove and i don't think he's a rosenhaus property.

[Money]

Before the Plax saga, we had a good working relationship with Rosenhaus. Not sure where we stand presently, or if Drew would be complicit in bringing a WR to NY knowing it would likely spell the end of Plax's Giant career.

[Virginia Giant]

They lost because Gilbride forgot how to call plays...Jacobs was averaging over 5 yards per carry and he has Manning throwing the ball into the wind...Manning also had a wide open Steve Smith on the opening play of the game and he missed by 10 yards, then of course he had not trouble finding a wide open Asante Samuel. That had nothing to do with Burress not being there.

Dude, I'm 100 % with you on Gillbride. But I also think saying Plax not being there had no effect on the game is a bit of a stretch. That was a very winnable game for us, hell, we should have won it, but it likely is a win if Plax is there.