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Why would this one not make sense?


xxi-xxv
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Ok so I know that most of us Met fans acknowledge that this middle of the order needs another bat and many of us feel its the perfect storm brewing to add Manny. Most of us look at the corner outfield positions and see a guy who is now 30 years old and has never driven in more than 70 runs in a season and a journeyman out of baseball for 3 years and a rookie converted infielder as something that a team expecting to compete must upgrade. Now I for one can acknowledge the Manny potential issues, but sadly I cannot see any reason why not to sign him, but lets be honest the Wilpons have balked at things like this before(see Vlad 2004) as they steadfastly stick to a payroll number(ironic for two stupid fucks who let Bernie Madoff run off with 700 mil of their money)and very rarely go over it before the season starts.

 

So lets say Manny is a no go. How about Bobby Abreu?

 

The naysayers will say, well he is left handed and the Mets are lefty heavy. I will tell you he hits lefties as good or better than righties(315 in 08). The naysayers will tell you he is a defensive liability. I will tell you he is better than TWO converted infielders are at a corner outfield spot and has proven that 70 rbis is not his max. He works the count as good as any hitter in the game and put him in the 3 hole in front of Wright and you can bet that he would see a shitload of pitches to hit.

 

He is no Clemente in the OF, that I will admit, but are Tatis and Murphy any better?

 

IMO this is a terrific fallback plan to pissing away the oppurtunity to add the best right handed hitter in the game.

 

Abreu link

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What do you think about Adam Dunn? Another terrible outfielder and does strike out but he can hit and drive in runs.

 

I would prefer Abreu, he is not an awful outfielder, he just does not like walls and would bring a lot more to the offense....

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I don't know Dunn, but I can't believe no one's picked up Abreu. Except for that fear of the fences, he's an excellent glove with a better than average arm, a high OBP, can steal the important base for you, can score 100 runs + knock in 100 more. What the hell is Cashman thinking? :brooding:

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I don't know Dunn, but I can't believe no one's picked up Abreu. Except for that fear of the fences, he's an excellent glove with a better than average arm, a high OBP, can steal the important base for you, can score 100 runs + knock in 100 more. What the hell is Cashman thinking? :brooding:

 

I agree... I'm going to miss Abreu.

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Yes, I wouldn't mind Abreu, even though we disagree on how much LF needs to be upgraded, XXI. I think Abreu could be a nice fit.

 

I know you think its about the big name and thats fine, but he is one question for you? How many teams compete for a pennant with a corner outfield situation comprised of a converted rookie infielder with 150 major league at bats and a converted journeyman infielder who proved in a spot role he is best suited? Factor in the other overrated never driven in more than 70 runs guy in RF and I am sorry, you are completely blind in thinking this is not an issue. There is not a Met fan alive other than you content with this corner outfield middle of the order situation.

 

best case is Murphy gets his 300-350 at bats in spot duty and slides right into 1B in 2010 when Delgado leaves. LF is not his permanent position.

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I know you think its about the big name and thats fine, but he is one question for you? How many teams compete for a pennant with a corner outfield situation comprised of a converted rookie infielder with 150 major league at bats and a converted journeyman infielder who proved in a spot role he is best suited? Factor in the other overrated never driven in more than 70 runs guy in RF and I am sorry, you are completely blind in thinking this is not an issue. There is not a Met fan alive other than you content with this corner outfield middle of the order situation.

 

best case is Murphy gets his 300-350 at bats in spot duty and slides right into 1B in 2010 when Delgado leaves. LF is not his permanent position.

 

 

I think I agreed with you that Abreu would fit on this team. :confused:

 

I realize I'm also in the minority that believes that Church, given a full healthy season, will produce much more than you think. I know you think I'm crazy for that, but I will still maintain that he will produce until he proves one of us right or wrong.

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I think I agreed with you that Abreu would fit on this team. :confused:

 

I realize I'm also in the minority that believes that Church, given a full healthy season, will produce much more than you think. I know you think I'm crazy for that, but I will still maintain that he will produce until he proves one of us right or wrong.

 

 

You just said that you disagree that the LF spot has to be upgraded? Where is the confusion...

 

 

See here is the deal, he has NEVER produced on a consistent basis EVER. So I am proved right in my assesment that he is nothing more than an average RFer, who at best can hit 270 and drive in 70 runs, which in this lineup is not going to cut it.

 

BTW you need to still answer the question, how many teams compete for a pennant and or win one with a LF and RF situation like the Mets have???

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You just said that you disagree that the LF spot has to be upgraded? Where is the confusion...

 

 

See here is the deal, he has NEVER produced on a consistent basis EVER. So I am proved right in my assesment that he is nothing more than an average RFer, who at best can hit 270 and drive in 70 runs, which in this lineup is not going to cut it.

 

BTW you need to still answer the question, how many teams compete for a pennant and or win one with a LF and RF situation like the Mets have???

 

 

I disagreed on HOW MUCH LF needs to be upgraded. I think Manny comes with too many negatives to go with the exorbitant price. Hence, I don't think we need to go that far. I also think Murphy needs to play and get a lot of AB's. If you are not going to play him near everyday, he should be sent back to AAA.

 

You are NOT proved right in your assessment of Church. I'm throwing out 2008 for him because of the concussion that CLEARLY affected his play. But early 2008 he was impressive.

 

Church has NEVER in his career had an opportunity to play a full season as an everyday outfielder. He came close with the Nationals in 2007 but was still not a true everyday outfielder, plus he was playing in a terrible lineup. I don't think you can make a fair assessment on Church based on his career statistics thus far. Church will get that opportunity this year, as a player who is entering his prime. Since we fundamentally disagree on Church's value, then the second question is moot.

 

Throwing statistics aside, what Church is is a guy who can hit for power, run well, play a good RF with an above average arm. And he can hit near .280, with potential for more. In the lineup everyday, the stats will come.

 

I think the Mets not only have an excellent chance to win the pennant this year, I think the will in fact win it.

 

 

 

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I disagreed on HOW MUCH LF needs to be upgraded. I think Manny comes with too many negatives to go with the exorbitant price. Hence, I don't think we need to go that far. I also think Murphy needs to play and get a lot of AB's. If you are not going to play him near everyday, he should be sent back to AAA.

 

You are NOT proved right in your assessment of Church. I'm throwing out 2008 for him because of the concussion that CLEARLY affected his play. But early 2008 he was impressive.

 

Church has NEVER in his career had an opportunity to play a full season as an everyday outfielder. He came close with the Nationals in 2007 but was still not a true everyday outfielder, plus he was playing in a terrible lineup. I don't think you can make a fair assessment on Church based on his career statistics thus far. Church will get that opportunity this year, as a player who is entering his prime. Since we fundamentally disagree on Church's value, then the second question is moot.

 

Throwing statistics aside, what Church is is a guy who can hit for power, run well, play a good RF with an above average arm. And he can hit near .280, with potential for more. In the lineup everyday, the stats will come.

 

I think the Mets not only have an excellent chance to win the pennant this year, I think the will in fact win it.

 

Here is how it breaks down compadre. My case against Church is backed up by facts. Never hit above 270, never driven in more than 70 runs, 31, cannot stay on the field, career awful numbers vs lefties, etc.

 

On the other hand you are doing nothing but making exuses as to why Church has and will never be more than what the facts say he is. Bad lineup, injuries etc etc.

 

Wise man once said(Parcells) You are what your record says you are. The record says Church is nothing more than an everage at best player.

 

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Here is how it breaks down compadre. My case against Church is backed up by facts. Never hit above 270, never driven in more than 70 runs, 31, cannot stay on the field, career awful numbers vs lefties, etc.

 

On the other hand you are doing nothing but making exuses as to why Church has and will never be more than what the facts say he is. Bad lineup, injuries etc etc.

 

Wise man once said(Parcells) You are what your record says you are. The record says Church is nothing more than an everage at best player.

 

I understand your statement and for most players I would agree. However, in the case of Church, I do not. I do not feel he has been given adequate opportunity to prove himself at the Major League level over the course of a full season. I think that the argument that "he can't stay on the field" is particularly unfair since he did take a pretty traumatic blow to his head via Yunel Escobar's knee. Sometimes, shit just happens. That, too me, is not indicative that he should be tagged with the "fragile" label.

 

I understand that I may be wrong about him. However, I've always tended to root for underrated guys on the upswing, which I feel Church is on. I initially hated the Milledge trade for him. However, the couple of months when he was carrying the Mets, prior to the head injury, he showed me enough that I believe had the concussion never have happened, we would've won a few more games and got much more out of RF and out of him for the remainder of the year. I don't think we would've gone far even if we made the playoffs, because I hear he is a terrible set up man and an even worse closer. But I do think he can be a valuable contributor to a Mets team that will be successful in the playoffs in 2009.

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BTW, I wouldn't say Church is TERRIBLE versus lefties. He's hit .257 against them career, and .264 against them last year. He only has 7 HR's in 315 AB's against them career, but more than half, (4) came just last season in 106 AB's. Could be an outlier or the bell curve theory could be employed here.

 

Carlos Delgado did not fair much better against lefties last year, batting .267 in double the amount of AB's, with a lower OBP (.299 vs .319). Delgado did have 12 homers against them, versus Church's 4, as I said, in double the AB's.

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Church did have 300 at bats last year, and despite carrying the team as you say for 2 months(more like 3 weeks) Church bottomed out to 276 in 300 at bats and 90 games. In full duty(144 games in 2007) he hit 270. His numbers vs lefties are not that bad because no one, not even the vaunted Nationals lineup would let him hit lefties on a consistent basis.

 

he is what he is, at best a 275 hitter, better vs righties, ideally your left handed bat in a platoon and an above average outfielder.

 

Thats what his numbers say he is, thats what the scouting report says(see the lack of career at bats vs lefties) and thats what the Mets should say he is, sadly they have people rooked thinking they have the next coming of Paul O'Neil in RF.

 

IF Church is your 3rd best outfielder you are doing ok, when he is your second best you are in some trouble....

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XXI, what are you going to say if Murphy hits .300 with a lot of doubles, about 15 homers, 70 RBI, and scores about 90 runs out of the two-hole? :)

 

Instead of worrying about who is out there, let's get behind the team that IS THERE, and root for some underdogs like Murphy and Church. Positive energy is what we need... up and down and all around! Feel the flow, xxi! Are you feeling it? :P

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XXI, what are you going to say if Murphy hits .300 with a lot of doubles, about 15 homers, 70 RBI, and scores about 90 runs out of the two-hole? :)

 

Instead of worrying about who is out there, let's get behind the team that IS THERE, and root for some underdogs like Murphy and Church. Positive energy is what we need... up and down and all around! Feel the flow, xxi! Are you feeling it? :P

 

DO you honestly think that when people criticize the team, or maybe say they will not do that well means that they are not behind the team?

 

 

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DO you honestly think that when people criticize the team, or maybe say they will not do that well means that they are not behind the team?

 

I think it's the constant negativity, the constant complaints of the team, that makes me think that. If you were to read your's and others complete body of work on here, I don't think there's any mention of looking forward to seeing the season start and watching Met baseball, no positivity about the guys that are there. It's just a constant barrage of negativity about the team, so it gives me the feeling that some are reluctant to get behind the team because they don't want to go through the level of disappointment that we've all been through the last couple of seasons. And I really understand that, too.

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I think it's the constant negativity, the constant complaints of the team, that makes me think that. If you were to read your's and others complete body of work on here, I don't think there's any mention of looking forward to seeing the season start and watching Met baseball, no positivity about the guys that are there. It's just a constant barrage of negativity about the team, so it gives me the feeling that some are reluctant to get behind the team because they don't want to go through the level of disappointment that we've all been through the last couple of seasons. And I really understand that, too.

 

I have been doing a lot of thinking about this years team as of late. I understand that most of us are still pretty pissed off from the last two seasons. We have every right to be. Am I going to watch the Mets this year? Of course I will, but not sure not sure much I am going to watch. I probably missed about a dozen games last year. I just don't know if I can go through this again. I am going to give them a chance but if they come out flat or are just average, I am going to still follow them but I am not going to watch almost every game on the tube. Instead on a weekend evening, I will go out instead of waiting til the game is over and then go out.

 

I think we need to be honest with ourselves here. This is not a bad team. In fact it's a good team. I am not going to concede defeat already to the Phillies but the Mets have a better shot of the wild card this year. Like I said, I have been doing a lot of thinking lately. Does anyone feel that this team is worse than last year? Besides the obvious holes in LF, 2B and C, there are not many issues. Finally the team will have a fifth starter and a pen that I might be able to finally count on. Omar did a terrific job in signing KRod and trading for Putz. I am confident in the pitching staff now that there finally will be a legitimate 5th starter. It's going to be nice to see who ends up taking this spot between Garcia, Redding and Niese. Thank god no Pedro.

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I think it's the constant negativity, the constant complaints of the team, that makes me think that. If you were to read your's and others complete body of work on here, I don't think there's any mention of looking forward to seeing the season start and watching Met baseball, no positivity about the guys that are there. It's just a constant barrage of negativity about the team, so it gives me the feeling that some are reluctant to get behind the team because they don't want to go through the level of disappointment that we've all been through the last couple of seasons. And I really understand that, too.

 

 

Its called being objective and realizing that this team is just not that good in certain areas. It does not mean that any of us do not want to watch the games or hope they win, its just that we are not so naive to think that simply raising our blue and orange pom poms to the sky and "getting behind the team" is going to mask the reality that this team has its warts.

 

these thread and posts are not about looking forward to seeing the season start, its about the quality of the roster. One has nothing to do with the other.

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I have been doing a lot of thinking about this years team as of late. I understand that most of us are still pretty pissed off from the last two seasons. We have every right to be. Am I going to watch the Mets this year? Of course I will, but not sure not sure much I am going to watch. I probably missed about a dozen games last year. I just don't know if I can go through this again. I am going to give them a chance but if they come out flat or are just average, I am going to still follow them but I am not going to watch almost every game on the tube. Instead on a weekend evening, I will go out instead of waiting til the game is over and then go out.

 

I think we need to be honest with ourselves here. This is not a bad team. In fact it's a good team. I am not going to concede defeat already to the Phillies but the Mets have a better shot of the wild card this year. Like I said, I have been doing a lot of thinking lately. Does anyone feel that this team is worse than last year? Besides the obvious holes in LF, 2B and C, there are not many issues. Finally the team will have a fifth starter and a pen that I might be able to finally count on. Omar did a terrific job in signing KRod and trading for Putz. I am confident in the pitching staff now that there finally will be a legitimate 5th starter. It's going to be nice to see who ends up taking this spot between Garcia, Redding and Niese. Thank god no Pedro.

 

I worry about Wright and Reyes now in a big spot as Wright took a tremendous beating(Mike Francessa)for last years collapse. regardless of whether it was warranted it will be interesting to see how he responds in big spots. His 124 rbis last year were not what it could have been. His RISP and late inning RISP numbers were way down. My guess is he will do better this year in that regard, but he needs to relax at the plate in big spots, like he did as a youngster. Same with Reyes, its why IMO Manny would be such a tremndous addition to this lineup, he would take so much pressure off these two and just allow them to do their thing .... but thats another thread <_<

 

I expect the usual seasons from Johan, Wright, Reyes and Beltran. pelfrey should get better and at this point you can say Maine is a reliable veteran, ditto with Perez. I look foward to Krod and Putz late in games and as one poster(yours truly :P )brought up when these deals were made it should be interesting to see how Sanchez comes back from a full year recovered from a surgery that no one really knows how it heals. This is a huge key as if we can get a guy to bridge that 6th and 7th to the 8th and 9th inning guys we can win a lot of games, and save some starters some innings for later on in the year, particualrly Pelfrey who it will be interesting to see how he responds to his innings total of 2008.

 

Here are my questions.

Do we get good Delgado, or bad Delgado?

Does anyone really think that Tatis is an everyday player or not see his value for what it is?

The holes at 2B, C are so glaring its scary, can the Mets compensate for that?

How many teams compete without at least one dependable run producer in a corner oF spot?

How is Johans knee?

Will the Wilpons make an addition mid season to help the team or are the fiancial problems too much?

Where is the right handed hitting pop in t his lineup outside Wright?

 

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I hate conspiracies but why was Delgado so much better after Willie was fired? Poof, all of a sudden Delgado looks a lot better. He smiled a lot more and became that leader on the field once again. Obviously he had some injuries but I just cannot explain it.

 

I think Tatis can be very valuable off the bench but that is it. Isn't Pagan coming back also? I have come to terms that the Mets will be not making any more big moves and we have to move on and be content in what we have. I would obviously love another bat in left but that organization feels like it is better off right now and maybe who knows, a player will become available. I am going to do a wait and see with Schneider this year. He did battle through quite amount of injuries last year. I am really worried about second base. I have been since last year. But I am just stating the obvious. I cannot stomach the thought of Castillo the starting second baseman.

 

I excited to see how the new park is going to turn out. Supposedly it will be a pitchers park but even more a pitchers park than Shea or will there be more balls flying out? I have a feeling Santana is going to have a great year. I wasn't too worried about the knee last year and I am not worried about it this year. I am even more excited about Big Pelf. I was masterful in a lot of outings last year and it can only go up from there. I am hoping Maine can return to form from 2 years ago. Beltran needs to have a good year. Last year's wasn't that good at all.

 

I really like Jerry Manual and I think he is the manager this team needs. It's too bad the Mets didn't make the playoffs last year but he did a really good job with what he had. It is too bad that Willie was manager up until June. I wonder how Wagners progress is coming a long. Last I heard, he was months ahead of schedule and could be available by August. We have some bad feelings about him but it would be nice to have another arm in the pen.

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