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Good Eli / Bad Eli


Lughead
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I find this very interesting

 

Read the replies if you want to see What other people think about it. Of course there are the "Brady is a GOD " crap . Well if he is I like knowing that our Defence brought "GOD" down to earth in Arizona ;)

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Here's my take on Eli.

 

First, my take on Quarterbacks in general. There are many physically gifted QB's in the NFL, past and present. But what's the difference between a QB who wins games (and big games) and a physically gifted QB? Brains along with the physical gift. There are so many schemes these days and watching opposing defenses line up is like trying to keep track of each bee swarming around a bee hive. A QB has to be able to read what is going on in an instant in order to change the play on the fly. Physically gifted QB's stick with a play and are talented enough to force the play to completion based on pure skills (some of the time). However, relying on pure physical skills is not enough to be a "winning QB". A good example is McNabb, who is one of the most physically gifted QBs in my time. But when he gets fooled by the defense, he either forces a throw into double coverage or turns himself into a running back to make up for it. This has cost him a lot of time because of injuries as well as an inability to take the team all the way to the Lombardi trophy.

 

The NFL is NOT fantasy football. The Giants don't get points for individual accomplishments as does a fanatasy team owner. Too many people look at QB statistics and conclude that the best QB's have the best individual stats...when in fact, that doesn't always translate into winning teams.

 

Now on Eli.

 

Eli is the consummate team player. He does not give a fuck about individual statistics. But he does care about how well the team does and would rather win a game ugly than lose a game where his stats were a fantasy team owner's dream.

 

Don't get me wrong, Eli is a physically gifted player, but he is spending the majority of his off time watching tape, working with coaches, and developing a coach's mindset while on the field. Although he has physical tools, he is working hardest at developing his cranial tools. In the few seasons that he's played, I've seen big improvement in his taking leadership of the team and especially in deciphering the opposition's defensive scheme and changing plays to counteract. Yeah, he still makes mistakes, but they have become less and less over time in small incremental improvements. In a couple of years, I believe he will be one of (if not THEE) best QBs in the business at reading a defense and knowing exactly what to do to counteract the scheme being thrown at him. THe last QB I remember who used his brain more than his physical tools was Roger Staubach...who as you know, did a fair share of winning games. Like Staubach, Eli runs the 2-minute drill as good as anyone in the NFL right now....and that's because he sees the obvious in defensive schems (which are usually simple variations of "prevent defenses"), just as Staubach used to do (which always pissed me off because I was rooting against the Cowboys). No one did it better than Staubach, but Eli is in a position to be very similar in that regard.

 

I think that people who only look at the individual stats instead of team stats, will be disappointed in Eli and will be scratching their heads wondering how a team has so many wins when the QB has such average stats.

 

Eli is fine and I believe he will bring the Giants another SB victory or two before he retires.

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I dont know if Eli is not gonna look like shit again. After the offenses piss-poor performance against the lions, as well as the defense, it reminds me of the soft schedule we had last year, the lack of LB depth, the youth in the secondary, and Eli's struggles. Its easy to say that it was the first preseason game and all, but it oput some serious doubts in my head. :unsure:

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Here's my take on Eli.

 

First, my take on Quarterbacks in general. There are many physically gifted QB's in the NFL, past and present. But what's the difference between a QB who wins games (and big games) and a physically gifted QB? Brains along with the physical gift. There are so many schemes these days and watching opposing defenses line up is like trying to keep track of each bee swarming around a bee hive. A QB has to be able to read what is going on in an instant in order to change the play on the fly. Physically gifted QB's stick with a play and are talented enough to force the play to completion based on pure skills (some of the time). However, relying on pure physical skills is not enough to be a "winning QB". A good example is McNabb, who is one of the most physically gifted QBs in my time. But when he gets fooled by the defense, he either forces a throw into double coverage or turns himself into a running back to make up for it. This has cost him a lot of time because of injuries as well as an inability to take the team all the way to the Lombardi trophy.

 

The NFL is NOT fantasy football. The Giants don't get points for individual accomplishments as does a fanatasy team owner. Too many people look at QB statistics and conclude that the best QB's have the best individual stats...when in fact, that doesn't always translate into winning teams.

 

Now on Eli.

 

Eli is the consummate team player. He does not give a fuck about individual statistics. But he does care about how well the team does and would rather win a game ugly than lose a game where his stats were a fantasy team owner's dream.

 

Don't get me wrong, Eli is a physically gifted player, but he is spending the majority of his off time watching tape, working with coaches, and developing a coach's mindset while on the field. Although he has physical tools, he is working hardest at developing his cranial tools. In the few seasons that he's played, I've seen big improvement in his taking leadership of the team and especially in deciphering the opposition's defensive scheme and changing plays to counteract. Yeah, he still makes mistakes, but they have become less and less over time in small incremental improvements. In a couple of years, I believe he will be one of (if not THEE) best QBs in the business at reading a defense and knowing exactly what to do to counteract the scheme being thrown at him. THe last QB I remember who used his brain more than his physical tools was Roger Staubach...who as you know, did a fair share of winning games. Like Staubach, Eli runs the 2-minute drill as good as anyone in the NFL right now....and that's because he sees the obvious in defensive schems (which are usually simple variations of "prevent defenses"), just as Staubach used to do (which always pissed me off because I was rooting against the Cowboys). No one did it better than Staubach, but Eli is in a position to be very similar in that regard.

 

I think that people who only look at the individual stats instead of team stats, will be disappointed in Eli and will be scratching their heads wondering how a team has so many wins when the QB has such average stats.

 

Eli is fine and I believe he will bring the Giants another SB victory or two before he retires.

 

Well said Bleedin. And your spot on. What I love about Eli most is his ability to get out of sticky situations, and his play when his back against the wall. It sucks that when he has time and receivers are open he stinks, but the clutch performances are natural talent. You cant teach those things.

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Well said Bleedin. And your spot on. What I love about Eli most is his ability to get out of sticky situations, and his play when his back against the wall. It sucks that when he has time and receivers are open he stinks, but the clutch performances are natural talent. You cant teach those things.

 

 

Thats not a very well thought out idea. The SBXLII play was great, but its over. Eli can not do that all the time.

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Thats not a very well thought out idea. The SBXLII play was great, but its over. Eli can not do that all the time.

 

Im not talking about just that play. Im talking about his natural talents, and thats when he is under pressure. That play, turning it on when the playoffs started, the Bears game, The Broncos game a few years back, the Seahawks game a few years back(fuckin Feely). He is better under pressure, and you cant teach that shit.

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Eli Manning is an inaccurate passer- that was his label in high school and at Old Miss. Same way here- there's no good or bad. Usually, his smarts and his field management overcome this, sometimes they don't. I don't think you'll ever see him with pinpoint accuracy.

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I dont know if Eli is not gonna look like shit again. After the offenses piss-poor performance against the lions, as well as the defense, it reminds me of the soft schedule we had last year, the lack of LB depth, the youth in the secondary, and Eli's struggles. Its easy to say that it was the first preseason game and all, but it oput some serious doubts in my head. :unsure:

Preaseason game #1.

 

 

 

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Am I really reading this? Is this a joke? Ok guys real funny. Is it be like the GMB day or something?

 

Ok in all seriousness are you kidding me? I am sitting here reading things like "offenses piss poor preformance against the Lions" and citing a soft schedule of 2007(something I must have missed as we played 4 inter div games against teams that made the playoffs), but anyway re fucking lax. Its game 1 of the PRE SEASON. THere is no gameplanning(though if you read some stuff about the game the Lions gameplanned at least for the Giants pass rush), there was no plax, no smith, nothing more than a glorified scrimmage. Shit be happy ELI Did not get touched as opposed to his stats, they mean shit(just the same if he were 6-6 for 105 yards and a TD).

 

I think we have to put to rest ELI and what he can and cannot do. Man won a SB, was the MVP. The mortgage on ELI has been paid, so lets enjoy what we have now and not overanalyze everything he does, especially in meaningless games.

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Am I really reading this? Is this a joke? Ok guys real funny. Is it be like the GMB day or something?

 

Ok in all seriousness are you kidding me? I am sitting here reading things like "offenses piss poor preformance against the Lions" and citing a soft schedule of 2007(something I must have missed as we played 4 inter div games against teams that made the playoffs), but anyway re fucking lax. Its game 1 of the PRE SEASON. THere is no gameplanning(though if you read some stuff about the game the Lions gameplanned at least for the Giants pass rush), there was no plax, no smith, nothing more than a glorified scrimmage. Shit be happy ELI Did not get touched as opposed to his stats, they mean shit(just the same if he were 6-6 for 105 yards and a TD).

 

I think we have to put to rest ELI and what he can and cannot do. Man won a SB, was the MVP. The mortgage on ELI has been paid, so lets enjoy what we have now and not overanalyze everything he does, especially in meaningless games.

guys- what guys? why do you make blanket statements about 1 person?

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You know blu, I am not as old as you I presume, but I think I am starting to feel my age as a Giant fan, as I hae seen enough crappy teams and bad quarterbacks to realize when it is a problem. ;)

 

Fuck I remember watching Tarkenton, Pisarcik, Golsteyn and other fucks run out there and lose. Eli is the real deal....flawed...but still the real deal. I could care less about pre-season as long as we avoid any "JASON SEHORN INCIDENTS" they could lose all of them. Game 1 of the season is when its for real. Plus I don't want all of the fancy stunts and curls shown by either the defense or offense during pre-season anyway. Why make it easier for other teams to game plan you when all you should be doing is evaluating personnel?

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You know blu, I am not as old as you I presume, but I think I am starting to feel my age as a Giant fan, as I hae seen enough crappy teams and bad quarterbacks to realize when it is a problem. ;)

i guess i didn't read the posts- maybe the eyesight is going.

 

I could say something but I don't have time for this nonsense.

:huh:

 

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Where's the option for Evil eli?

 

 

I am sure we sill see the Ugly Eli more than once.

 

I do think the kid has a good temperment, one that can pis you off when he is sucking, but one you can appreciate when the pressure is on. Even keel is what you need. As has been said before, you cant teach that.

 

Still without a killer swarming defence, the Giants get run over in the super bowl. He is the MVP only because its stupid to give it to the whole defence.

 

The playoffs he did show up big, the Bucs and Boys and Pack forced Eli to win it and he didnt lose.

 

 

I think he is an average QB that knows his limits and is comfortable with it. I dont see him as a particularly smart QB, and certainly no Roger S. nor is he a Fran. ALthough when he was with the G-men he was already washed up. He is not going to pick apart a defence. He will run the ball and punt until something opens up down feild. With tall fast receivers he will eventually hit a big one downfield.

 

Again, no QB no matter how good can win champoinships, thats for the Defence baby. Screw those primadonnas on O.

 

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I think he is an average QB that knows his limits and is comfortable with it. I dont see him as a particularly smart QB, and certainly no Roger S. nor is he a Fran. ALthough when he was with the G-men he was already washed up.

I never realized Roger Staubach played with the Giants after playing at Dallas......

 

 

Because certainly you aren't saying Fran Tarkenton was already washed up when he played for the Giants.

ProBowl in 67, 68, 69, 70, 74, and 75. (all during his time as a giant or after being traded back to the Vikes.)

League MVP in 75.

After he was traded back to the Vikes, he led them to 3 SuperBowls. Maybe he didn't win them, but at least he got them to it.

 

his stats below. Washed up in his last 2 years with the vikes, maybe, but heck he was like 60 years old by then. And those 2 years coming 6 years after leaving the Giants.

His worst passing yardage year with the Giants was 2555 in 14 games, which is like 2980 in 16 game season.

His stats before the Giants, with the Giants and after the Giants were awesome.

His last year with the Giants had a poor td/int ratio, but I imagine the Giants enjoyed watching Fran and Vikes in the SuperBowl 3 times during the next 5 years after trading him...... and watching him lose to Dallas in the NFC championship one of the other years because of a questionable call.

 

His stats.

Regular Season Stats PASSING RUSHING RECEIVING FUMBLES

Year AGE Team LG GP ATT CMP PCT YDS YPA LNG TD INT SKD SKY RAT RAT+ ATT YDS AVG TD LNG REC YDS AVG TD LNG TOT OWR OPR YDS TD

1961 21 MIN NFL 14 280 157 56.1 1997 7.13 71t 18 17 44 416 74.7 109 56 308 5.5 5 52t 0 0 0.0 0 0 8 5 0 0 0

1962 22 MIN NFL 14 329 163 49.5 2595 7.89 89t 22 25 45 450 66.9 92 41 361 8.8 2 31 0 -12 0.0 0 -12L 5 2 0 0 0

1963 23 MIN NFL 14 297 170 57.2 2311 7.78 67t 15 15 42 448 78.0 109 28 162 5.8 1 24 0 0 0.0 0 0 7 2 0 0 0

1964 24 MIN NFL 14 306 171 55.9 2506 8.19 64 22 11 46 446 91.8 128 50 330 6.6 2 31 0 0 0.0 0 0 6 2 0 0 0

1965 25 MIN NFL 14 329 171 52.0 2609 7.93 72t 19 11 28 250 83.8 114 56 356 6.4 1 36 0 0 0.0 0 0 5 3 0 0 0

1966 26 MIN NFL 14 358 192 53.6 2561 7.15 68t 17 16 37 322 73.8 109 62 376 6.1 4 28 0 0 0.0 0 0 8 4 0 0 0

1967 27 NYG NFL 14 377 204 54.1 3088 8.19 70t 29 19 29 283 85.9 129 44 306 7.0 2 22 0 0 0.0 0 0 4 0 0 0 0

1968 28 NYG NFL 14 337 182 54.0 2555 7.58 84 21 12 27 255 84.6 123 57 301 5.3 3 22t 0 0 0.0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0

1969 29 NYG NFL 14 409 220 53.8 2918 7.13 65 23 8 36 289 87.2 122 37 172 4.6 0 21 0 0 0.0 0 0 7 2 0 0 0

1970 30 NYG NFL 14 389 219 56.3 2777 7.14 59 19 12 36 249 82.2 125 43 236 5.5 2 20 0 0 0.0 0 0 3 3 0 0 0

1971 31 NYG NFL 13 386 226 58.5 2567 6.65 81t 11 21 27 232 65.4 105 30 111 3.7 3 16 0 0 0.0 0 0 4 4 0 -4 0

1972 32 MIN NFL 14 378 215 56.9 2651 7.01 76t 18 13 26 203 80.2 121 27 180 6.7 0 21 0 0 0.0 0 0 3 1 0 0 0

1973 33 MIN NFL 14 274 169 61.7 2113 7.71 54t 15 7 31 270 93.2 144 41 202 4.9 1 16 0 0 0.0 0 0 5 1 0 0 0

1974 34 MIN NFL 13 351 199 56.7 2598 7.40 80t 17 12 17 142 82.1 128 21 120 5.7 2 15 0 0 0.0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0

1975 35 MIN NFL 14 425 273 64.2 2994 7.04 46 25 13 27 245 91.8 140 16 108 6.8 2 21t 0 0 0.0 0 0 1 3 0 -3 0

1976 36 MIN NFL 13 412 255 61.9 2961 7.19 56t 17 8 25 221 89.3 133 27 45 1.7 1 20 0 0 0.0 0 0 4 2 0 -9 0

1977 37 MIN NFL 9 258 155 60.1 1734 6.72 59t 9 14 22 232 69.2 113 15 6 0.4 0 8 0 0 0.0 0 0 3 2 0 -14 0

1978 38 MIN NFL 16 572 345 60.3 3468 6.06 58t 25 32 27 254 68.9 106 24 -6 -0.3 1 15 0 0 0.0 0 0 7 7 0 -7 0

Totals 246 6467 3686 57.0 47003 7.27 0 342 266 572 5207 80.4 675 3674 5.4 32 0 0 -12 0.0 0 0 84 43 0 -37 0

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If that's "already washed up", I'd love to have a washed up player at each position on the G-men roster.

 

BTW, Fran Tarkenton was my 2nd favorite football player behind Archie Manning while I was growing up.

 

Fran was THE MAN.

 

EDit....... to further add, check his year by year QB ranking........ year by year QB ranking

1961- 8

62 6

63 9

64 7

65 3

66 5

67 5

68 3

69 2

70 2

71 3

72 2

73 2

74 5

75 1

76 2

77 15

78 1

 

How many of his years as QB was he ranked in Top 5? As a Giant, every year. After Giants, every year but one. Washed up? lol.

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