The latest story on Shockey - day before the draft

[BleedinBlue]

This mornings rumor is a 3-way trade involving Giants, Saints, and Eagles.

 

Supposedly, Eagles are offering the Saints, Lito Shephard for their 2nd round draft pick and the Saints are offering the Giants, Shephard for Shockey.

 

I imagine we'll know by the time the Giants are on the clock. Far too many rumors for the possiblity that Shockey won't be traded by today.

 

Both the Giants and the Saints are deadlocked in a poker showdown - a mono-et-mono bluff of epic proportions. The Giants will accept nothing less than a 2nd round pick (and then some), and the Saints want to give up nothing more than a 3rd round pick....yeah right!.

 

But the bottom line is: The Saints want Shockey really, really bad and the Giants are holding out to get what they want. The Giants have nothing to lose unless they fold their hand and give away Shockey for nothing, which I just cannot see Reese doing. Also, the Giants know that Seattle and Atlanta (and prehaps a surprise team) are also interested in Shockey so they really have the upper hand. Whoever takes Shockey must pony up or the Giants will simply keep him on our roster. I think the Saints will be sweating profusely on their brow as the draft clock gets closer to the Giants. Personally, I'd like to see the Giants get not only a 2nd round pick, but also swap 3rd's, and perhaps a low round draft pick for next year's draft.

 

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[edit: added later]

 

The New York Daily News is reporting that the Saints have offered the Giants their 2nd round and 5th round for Shockey, but was turned down because the Giants want more than that.

[Ggirl]

This mornings rumor is a 3-way trade involving Giants, Saints, and Eagles.

 

Supposedly, Eagles are offering the Saints, Lito Shephard for their 2nd round draft pick and the Saints are offering the Giants, Shephard for Shockey.

IMO--that would be absolutely RIDICULOUS.

 

 

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[edit: added later]

 

The New York Daily News is reporting that the Saints have offered the Giants their 2nd round and 5th round for Shockey, but was turned down because the Giants want more than that.

At least somebody is thinking.

[Tempest]

I'm curious as to why you don't see the Giants worse off without Shockey? They lose their starting TE. Not only are we losing a capable blocker but a sizeable chunk of the offense. Sure he's been prone to injury, but he still manages to put in more than half a season. Randy Moss has been considered a liability to team chemistry, has had his fair share of injuries in the last couple of years, I suppose we can call him a former pro bowler and not an all pro WR... Well unless its just because he's Randy Moss. Shockey is signed till 2012.

 

I'm sure the Raiders didn't think they were sending the Patriots to the superbowl when they traded Randy Moss but when you place a capable receiver on a team with a QB that can get him the ball in a good offensive scheme, you'd be surprised by the results. Well unless you're Belichick with either a crystal ball or a video camera.

 

Sending Shockey over for just a second round pick was a bad idea, that didn't happen. For just a third round pick tomorrow or even two picks tomorrow is simply nuts.

 

Well I would argue that we are not automatically sending the Saints to the SuperBowl just because they are getting Shockey. There are two sides to a deal and there is no reason to think that we can't be an even better team with the compensation we receive and/or the increased opportunity/production from Boss. And no, the Saints will not be laughing at us like the Patriots are laughing at the Raiders. Completely different scenario. The Raiders got a 4th round pick for Moss. A 2nd rounder plus another pick or player is fair compensation for Shockey. Shockey is a former pro bowler. He is not an All-Pro TE, and he has been injury prone, and at times has been a liability to team chemistry. He is also a free agent at the end of the 2008 season.

 

I say do it. With the picks we get, we may end up with the next great Giant linebacker or TE. We get younger talent and Shockey moves on to a team that will get him the ball as much as he wants. I see this scenario as a win for all parties. I don't see it like you do, that the Giants are automatically worse off because Shockey is no longer on the roster.

 

Of course the Saints are only saying a third right now. They are positioning and negotiating. But I bet come tomorrow they will offer a 2nd and another pick. Plus we will see what other teams will get involved. Perhaps the Falcons and Seahawks will be in it as well. Reese will take the best offer of course, and in that regard, we are in good shape. Just don't be too disappointed if he leaves, and I won't be disappointed if he stays.

[Allstarjim]

Tempest,

 

The reason I don't think the Giants would be worse off without Shockey is for several reasons. The first one, and most important one is, they beat 4 playoff games on the road with one of them being against one of the best teams of all time without him. There is a fair argument that we would have won those games with or without Shockey but I don't know that that's true. Don't know that it's not, either. But we won those games without him and that should stand on its own merit.

 

Secondly, I believe Boss is a real player. And he hasn't made the mental mistakes that Shockey has had in the past that has cost us (unsportsmanlike penalties, etc). He is also completely unselfish. He will be happy if his team wins and he only catches one pass just as he would if the team wins and he catches seven. Not sure I can say that about Shockey. I think Eli is better off not thinking about getting certain players the ball to keep them happy. He needs to just make his reads and throw it to whoever can make the play. At times do I think Eli has tried to force it to Shockey? Yes I do. The reasons are debateable. But with Boss, the offense naturally flows to him and I haven't seen much of that forcing. I don't think the Giants NEED a Pro Bowl caliber TE to have a great offense. I think we need to upgrade the WR spot opposite Plax for a more dangerous receiver at some point. I see Amani as a player in decline although he will always be able to get those possession catches and he is still valuable. I see Steve Smith as a possession receiver as well who hasn't shown me he can be a deep threat. In the future, to me, Smith is the 3rd WR and we need to work on a replacement for Amani. With a guy who has size and can stretch the field on the opposite side of Plax, with Smith and Boss, this offense can be JUST as effective or more effective than with Shockey. It's not that I don't think Shockey is a bad player. It's just I think he would fit in New Orleans system better than ours, he would be happier, and I think that his jaw-jacking has a big negative side to the team at times, despite the fact that he is also a source of intensity. I think that he is unhappy with his role with the Giants, and if Eli tries to change for him, and tries to force things to him, then our offense may suffer.

 

Also, you are not taking into consideration the player(s) we would receive for Shockey. It's not like we aren't receiving anything for Shockey in a trade, so you can't definitively say we would be worse off. We could theoretically draft a player that is BETTER than Shockey or one that gives us greater contributions at a position where we need better quality or depth. If you take your heart out of the equation, and dare I say a little Shockey homerism, then it really becomes fairly clear.

 

I like Shockey. I like his intensity, I think he is a very good TE. He works hard and the times where he's opened his mouth I've defended him. However, I do not think that he is one of the top 5 TE's in the NFL anymore. Dare I say he's only the third best TE in our own division. I don't look at him through rose-colored glasses like some Giants' fans do. He is what he is. A talented TE who has lapses in concentration at times and commits stupid penalties at times and opens his mouth at times. He's a bit of a prima donna and isn't happy unless he's a focal part of the offense. I'm not sure that player is best for the team.

 

As I said, Kevin Boss is sure-handed, runs well, is a huge target for Eli, doesn't complain, doesn't throw temper tantrums on the field, and doesn't commit stupid unsportsmanlike penalties. He just goes out there and plays football, gets his couple of catches and helps the Giants win. Am I saying he's BETTER than Shockey? No. I'm saying I think he's a better fit in our offense. Shockey is the better TE, Boss is the better fit for US. Again this is just my opinion. And you know if Shockey were to go we would acquire another TE who could block well and catch a little. Plus Pope will coach Boss up to where he is a more than adequate blocker. I heard the same doubts about Shockey's blocking when he was drafted.

 

So, in conclusion, I think to be fair, you have to at least give me that you don't know that we would be worse off without Shockey, because you don't know what players he would bring to us. And you don't know for sure that our offense didn't run more smoothly when it was just Boss and Shockey and everything that goes with was watching the game.

[BleedinBlue]

I agree with you (alstarjim) about Shockey. He's a helluva talent fer sure, BUT

 

Teams win with the right chemistry. I was watching a special on Bill Walsh the other day as he told of the secret of his success when head coach of the niners. He gave speeches to his team about how each one is part of a bigger play. He said that when Roger Craig (runningback) picked up ten yards in a run....that it had more to do with every other player on the team than it did with Craig. Wide recievers pulling fakes to clear the backfield, the tight end blocking, etc. Every single person on the team was responsible for their part in making that play happen and without the whole team making it happen, Craig is just another average running back.

 

He said the same thing about pass plays, defense, etc.

 

He emphasized the importance being one small part of the bigger picture and that the only thing that mattered was winning the game and they wouldn't win if even one of the players believed they were something special and believed they were so talented that they could make something happen without the entire team doing their part.

 

Regardless to say....the first person that came to my mind was Shockey.

 

The clear message is: "WINNING IS THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS AND ANYONE WHO THINKS THEY ARE MORE THAN JUST A COG IN A MACHINE DOING THEIR PART, CAUSES A TEAM TO LOSE".

 

Teams win when every player does their part in every play. Players are not coaches and they do not know everything that their coach knows about the team they are facing. Second guessing coaches simply means the player is ignorant about winning football games.

 

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On a side note, this morning's news has stated that the Giants were demanding next years 1st round pick for Shockey. Probably after the Saints traded up and didn't have the picks left in this years draft to fulfill an adequate trade. Also...the news said that both Seattle and Tampa Bay were also ringing the phone off the hook to see what it would take for the Giants to part with Shockey.

 

One other news of interest: it was said that the Jets traded with the Packers in order to draft tight end Dustin Keller, just one spot ahead of the Giants in order to keep the Giants from getting him. The Jets brass believes the Giants were going to draft Keller and then finish the trade for Shockey. It seemed a strange move because Keller could have been easily gotten by the Jets a few picks later and didn't need to trade up to get him because Keller wasn't viewed as anything other than a late 2nd round or 3rd round pick.

 

So who knows what in all is going on. Lots of secrecy - lots of second guessin - lots of poker playing going on in this draft

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

The Jets as usual are holes. That is all.