Its not the play calling, its not the coaches

[Hampton27 missed]

Just go look up Gillbride's resume. Hell, just look at his playcalling. Does he not realize that the flea flicker is a play that you can use at least once a year to keep defenses honest against your running game. Just look at all the 3rd and 5s that he called a deep pass. Where's the creativity? It's the same thing over and over.

 

I know the players aren't executing either but there's a reason why the Giants WRs get no separation, it's because there's too much predictability. This guy better change things up or we'll be one and done in the playoffs. He needs to simplify this offense with less options but at the same time he needs to do things that haven't been seen before.

[xxi-xxv]

No you're right, Gilbride is an excellent OC.

Look no further than the Washington game for evidence supporting that.

 

And don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying any of those coaches are to blame for Eli. Eli is what he is.

I'm saying they're to blame for not realizing it sooner.

How do you continue to put the game on his shoulders over and over again?

How do you abandon one of the best running games in the NFL over and over again?

 

It looks like they finally figured it out vs Buffalo, but something tells me they'll go right back to what isn't working vs the Pats.

 

find the post where I said "Gilbride is an excellent OC". I never said he was, nor do I think he is that great at all or very good for that matter, what bothers me is this fan bases constant exuses for why the QB has regressed to a point where we have to say this is as good as he is going to get. I amnot thrilled with Gilbride, never did like the hire as he is a run and shoot minded OC IMO, but is it all his fault that ELI is playing putirid football now for 2 months?

 

I am starting to think that when we say ELI is what he is that IS is just not very good.

[Nesta]

find the post where I said "Gilbride is an excellent OC". I never said he was, nor do I think he is that great at all or very good for that matter, what bothers me is this fan bases constant exuses for why the QB has regressed to a point where we have to say this is as good as he is going to get. I amnot thrilled with Gilbride, never did like the hire as he is a run and shoot minded OC IMO, but is it all his fault that ELI is playing putirid football now for 2 months?

 

I am starting to think that when we say ELI is what he is that IS is just not very good.

u were insinuating that bears no blame for Eli.

Eli has his strengths and our own oc ignores them.

play action is his biggest strength and how many times have seen us pass on 1st down?

[fishgutmartyr]

You know, you guys could both be right, and it wouldn't be a conflict.

 

Eli isn't looking nearly as good as we hoped he would at this point, although he does seem to be a competent QB. Unfortunately, we were looking for more than competent.

 

On the other hand, the gameplanning has also left a lot to be desired--there was simply no reason to throw as often as we did against Washington. None.

 

It's also possible that it might be an execution problem that has to do with the wide receivers, not the QB. For all we know, Eli is making the right reads, but our receivers aren't. So he winds up throwing to where the WR is supposed to be, and the wide receiver simply isn't there. Eli has mentioned that Plaxico studies the playbook as much as he does--coincidence then that Eli looks to Burress first?

 

I don't know if Toomer had to make as many reads under Fassel's offense: I do know that we struggled with Sean Payton's playbook, and that was probably as complex as Gilbride's. And Shockey is Shockey.

 

Don't read this as an excuse for Eli--he just doesn't seem to be the all-world QB we thought we had. On the other hand, this offense doesn't appear to be helping matters, either.

 

 

[xxi-xxv]

u were insinuating that bears no blame for Eli.

Eli has his strengths and our own oc ignores them.

play action is his biggest strength and how many times have seen us pass on 1st down?

 

I agree, having ELI pass on 1st down is silly, like last week for instance when his first pass of the 2nd half was picked off on an awful throw.

 

He is good at play action, but most Qb's are, Kerry Collins was as well, its when they get their optimum amout of time and can lock in on one receiver when the safety bites. ELI is very good as locking in on one WR so yes you are correct we should run 80% of the time and play action the other 20 as thats about all this Qb has shown he is equipped to do the past 6 weeks.

[fringe]

don't forget the shotgun draw- by far our most productive play- eli is a master at the standing handoff.

[xxi-xxv]

don't forget the shotgun draw- by far our most productive play- eli is a master at the standing handoff.

 

he really is

[Nesta]

I agree, having ELI pass on 1st down is silly, like last week for instance when his first pass of the 2nd half was picked off on an awful throw.

 

He is good at play action, but most Qb's are, Kerry Collins was as well, its when they get their optimum amout of time and can lock in on one receiver when the safety bites. ELI is very good as locking in on one WR so yes you are correct we should run 80% of the time and play action the other 20 as thats about all this Qb has shown he is equipped to do the past 6 weeks.

 

No, most qb's ratings don't go up when differentiating between play action and other passing plays.

It takes skill to turn your back to the defense before looking back for and finding your receiver.

He's very good at it. His rating shoots up into the 90's I believe.

 

I can agree that he isn't the superstar we were all expecting, but he has some assets to work with if we can get the right coordinator. And he has shown early in the seasons that he can win a shootout. It's not too late for him to better his latter season play.

[xxi-xxv]

No, most qb's ratings don't go up when differentiating between play action and other passing plays.

It takes skill to turn your back to the defense before looking back for and finding your receiver.

He's very good at it. His rating shoots up into the 90's I believe.

 

I can agree that he isn't the superstar we were all expecting, but he has some assets to work with if we can get the right coordinator. And he has shown early in the seasons that he can win a shootout. It's not too late for him to better his latter season play.

 

What shootout early in the season did he prove he can win?

 

 

[Nesta]

What shootout early in the season did he prove he can win?

 

I said seasons. Not this season.

Wasn't it '05 when we were leading the league in scoring for the nearly the whole first half of the season?

We put up more than 40 pts against two teams in the first 4 games.

 

 

06 Big big win over Philly, another over Dallas.

 

And the early Dallas loss this year definately was not on Eli.

 

He is better early in the season, and perhaps that comes back to your (or nas') cold weather theory.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

I agree, having ELI pass on 1st down is silly, like last week for instance when his first pass of the 2nd half was picked off on an awful throw.

 

He is good at play action, but most Qb's are, Kerry Collins was as well, its when they get their optimum amout of time and can lock in on one receiver when the safety bites. ELI is very good as locking in on one WR so yes you are correct we should run 80% of the time and play action the other 20 as thats about all this Qb has shown he is equipped to do the past 6 weeks.

I remember years ago when we had Steve Deberg as the QB coach trying to improve Brown (too bad genetic splicing is not at the levels found on Star Trek) and one of Deberg's hall marks was that he was the "King of the Play Action Pass". Talk about damning with faint praise. And yes he did improve Brown's abilities from horrifying to atrociously awful....so play-action is a mediocre QB's best friend.

[fringe]

I remember years ago when we had Steve Deberg as the QB coach trying to improve Brown (too bad genetic splicing is not at the levels found on Star Trek) and one of Deberg's hall marks was that he was the "King of the Play Action Pass". Talk about damning with faint praise. And yes he did improve Brown's abilities from horrifying to atrociously awful....so play-action is a mediocre QB's best friend.

Steve DeBerg, of whom Bill Walsh said "He's just good enough to lose"

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

Steve DeBerg, of whom Bill Walsh said "He's just good enough to lose"

LOL!!! Wonderful quote from the Master of Offense.

[xxi-xxv]

I remember years ago when we had Steve Deberg as the QB coach trying to improve Brown (too bad genetic splicing is not at the levels found on Star Trek) and one of Deberg's hall marks was that he was the "King of the Play Action Pass". Talk about damning with faint praise. And yes he did improve Brown's abilities from horrifying to atrociously awful....so play-action is a mediocre QB's best friend.

 

Don't tell Nesta that he claims that most QB's ratings do not go up with play action. I think what he means is that there is not such an identifiable leap. With our QB which makes him different than others is that that leap is so pronounced it appears he is doing better, when in essence his rating off play action is probably near or a tad above the league average.

[Nesta]

Don't tell Nesta that he claims that most QB's ratings do not go up with play action. I think what he means is that there is not such an identifiable leap. With our QB which makes him different than others is that that leap is so pronounced it appears he is doing better, when in essence his rating off play action is probably near or a tad above the league average.

 

That's not my theory, that was announced during a game by (I believe) Aikman.

Manning's qb rating off of play action was top 3 or 4, certainly not average.

The other qb's shown had rating drops. Granted, their other-than-pa ratings were higher than Eli's, but it dropped for play action.

 

Regardless, the point is very simple. His strength is play action and our oc's (all of them thus far) have virtually ignored it preferring a pass happy attack.

[RandolphScott]

That's not my theory, that was announced during a game by (I believe) Aikman.

Manning's qb rating off of play action was top 3 or 4, certainly not average.

The other qb's shown had rating drops. Granted, their other-than-pa ratings were higher than Eli's, but it dropped for play action.

 

Regardless, the point is very simple. His strength is play action and our oc's (all of them thus far) have virtually ignored it preferring a pass happy attack.

 

 

Yeah I heard that also, Eli's passer rating goes up like 20 to 30 points when

he does play action.

[xxi-xxv]

Yeah I heard that also, Eli's passer rating goes up like 20 to 30 points when

he does play action.

Like it was stated earlier, most Qb ratings do go up off play action, its the Qb's best friend. Problem is ELi's is so frigging low that it seems an amazing feat.

 

I have no problem with ELI, I think he can get better, but I am bone tired of the f-ing exuses we all give him for his piss poor play. I know it pains Giants fans to admit, but lets face it, he was not worth what it cost. With that said, lets no blame him for all the troubles. Last year it was Hufnagel, this year its Gilbride, whom I have never liked, but one thing that people should look at is the Qb stats of Gilbrides Qb's. Mannings are clearly at the very bottom.

[xxi-xxv]

Ok nowI got my curisoity up and looked up Gilbrides stats for his Qb's in the years he was the OC for that team. Working our way back here is what I have found

 

2002 Bledsoe 61.5% comp, 4359 yards 24 tds 15 ints 86 rating(was sacked 54 times, but that is Bledsoe)

2001 Using mostly Rob Johnson and Alex Van Pelt the two threw for a combined 3500 yards with 17 tds and 18 ints and a 76.5 rating

 

Qb coach years in Pitt

2000 he had Kordell Stewart and Kent Graham and combined they went 2700 yards, 12 tds 9 ints and a 73 rating for Stewart and a 63 for Graham

 

1999 He had Stewart and Tomczack and they were awful 300 yards combined 18 tds 18 ints about a 70 rating combined

 

As Olers OC(Gonna be a tad skewed as they ran the run and shoot)

1990 Moon 4689 yards 33 tds 13 ints 96.8 rating. A fella by the name of Cody Carlson played one game to the tune of 383 yards 4 tds and 2 ints for a 96.3 rating.

 

1991 Moon 4700 yards 23 tds 21 ints 81.3 rating

 

1992 Moon 2500 yards 18 tds 12 ints and an 89.3 rating

Carlson played 6 games and was 1700 yards 9 tds 11 ints and an 81.2 rating

 

1993 3400 yards 21 tds 21 ints 75.2 rating(closest yet to ELI of any of his Qbs that actually belonged in the NFL)

 

Clearly his best work was done as a run and shoot OC, hence why I never had any use for him here, but his Qb's stats were always pretty good when they were not named Kordell.

[Nesta]

ouch. now this brings up the question, why did we bring in someone with such a mediocre or subpar track record in the first place?

[xxi-xxv]

ouch. now this brings up the question, why did we bring in someone with such a mediocre or subpar track record in the first place?

 

mediocrity breeds medicrity. When Gilbride had decent Qb's in Moon and Bledsoe he was not all that bad, when he has had mediocre Qb's such as Kordell and Eli, well the numbers speak for themselves.

 

I know I know ELi is not mediocre. You are right in that regard considering the league average for QB rating is 82.4 and Eli is currently at 70.9

[fishgutmartyr]

The touchdown to Int ratio for his quarterbacks are terrible. Even with a HOF QB in Moon, half the time it was close to 1:1.

 

It's also kind of telling that Moon's best year with him was his first.

 

I'm pointing this out because the biggest complaint about Eli is his interceptions/incompletions, and by looking at these stats, you get the impression that Gilbride's system lends itself to a high amount of interceptions.

[Nesta]

mediocrity breeds medicrity. When Gilbride had decent Qb's in Moon and Bledsoe he was not all that bad, when he has had mediocre Qb's such as Kordell and Eli, well the numbers speak for themselves.

 

I know I know ELi is not mediocre. You are right in that regard considering the league average for QB rating is 82.4 and Eli is currently at 70.9

 

I don't get it. You're apparently in agreement with me, and yet you still think I'm making excuses for Eli?

 

Unless you have a time machine, tell me what other way we can get success out of the kid other than to use his strengths?

 

I say repeatedly that Eli will be a good quarterback, hell you just said yourself 'you've got no problem with him and you think he can get better. As far as I can tell we're on the same page. You even stated you think Gilbride is 'not very good'.

 

Now tell me how it's 'making excuses for the qb', when one points out that the offensive coordinator is foregoing the greatest strength of the quarterback (not to mention how many times he's completely ignored the running game when it was successful) and trying to force an offensive plan that just doesn't work week in and week out? How long would you do it?

 

And you expect me to believe that this complete ignorance on Gilbride's part has no bearing on the qb position?

Maybe Eli is mediocre or even sub-mediocre, so what? We're stuck with him. Learn your lesson about forcing shit on him that he can't do, and work on what he can do. It's that simple.

[Nesta]

mediocrity breeds medicrity. When Gilbride had decent Qb's in Moon and Bledsoe he was not all that bad, when he has had mediocre Qb's such as Kordell and Eli, well the numbers speak for themselves.

 

I know I know ELi is not mediocre. You are right in that regard considering the league average for QB rating is 82.4 and Eli is currently at 70.9

 

The 16th highest qb rating in the league is Carson Palmer with 84.6, after that it's a quick drop off.

Saying the 'league average qb rating is 82.4' is misleading, considering the top 5 qb's are raising that

average significantly.

 

And don't take that as an excuse for Eli. That has nothing to do with Eli, just pointing out how taking an average for qb rating doesn't mean shit.

[BlueInCanada]

I blame whoever makes the gatorade, I mean everyone else has been blamed....

[RandolphScott]

I blame whoever makes the gatorade, I mean everyone else has been blamed....

 

 

He passed away about a month ago.