I've stood by him for a long time...but Eli

[JMFP]

I meant no offense, but it all starts with the quarterback. If a receiver breaks the wrong way but would have been covered anyway, you don't throw the pass especially directly to the opposing team's DB. He got (and gets) shook easily and tossed the ball...it wasn't necessarily ALL his fault but you can't throw 3 touchdowns (and a 4th that was in our red zone) and spot the team 28 points and expect your team to be behind you. That's on the QB. And it all starts there, like I said...

 

And you can't continually put your own defense in those positions either, by turning it over. They gave up 13 legitimate points, and held their RB that was supposed to run all over us basically in check.

 

Exactly.

 

Someone needs to teach him how to tuck the fucking ball and start scrambling up field. Seems like opposing QB's do that all the time to our defense.

[fishgutmartyr]

Rivers made the Pro Bowl last year. Rivers has not been good thus far this year, giving him one good season and one inconsistent season. I will take that over 4 inconsistent seasons, however, Big Ben has always been my favorite, and I pushed for him before that draft. Also, it is entirely impossible for you to know if we would have had Merriman or not. They used our pick to get him, so one thing is sure... he wouldn't be a Charger today.

Yep, and it only took a RB on the fast track to the HOF to have a career season, and the top TE in the league to help Rivers out. Oh, and a backup running back that would start on most teams, and a rookie LT not only starting, but playing well beyond expectations.

 

Funny how he's inconsistent when all this isn't happening this year, don't you think?

 

--------

So, how good has Merriman been after the steroid bust?

 

You guys have to remember that Emmons/Green were still recent acquisitions and we just signed Pierce before that draft--so even if we kept that pick, we might have drafted a CB anyway, which even back then was a weakness.

 

Would I want Ben R. and the picks? Only if we keep Pierce, MacKenzie, and Burress--otherwise, no. And even if that was possible, there is no garrentee that Ben would work in the system we have here.

 

Frankly, Manning doesn't suck, he's just not what his contract says he is. Adjust the contract down when it comes up (and there is no WAY he gets the money he is getting now from ANYBODY), and we can deal with it. We simply have to establish our playmakers elsewhere on the team, and make sure our oline is solid, since he clearly panics when he gets pressured.

 

And to the lamenters on this board that wanted to keep Collins or Warner (as if they would have been better somehow, despite their greater lack of mobility and equally poor decision-making)--we probably would have drafted a QB already or looking at one this coming draft. Alex Smith or Eli Manning...hmmm...

[Chuck Wagon]

And to the lamenters on this board that wanted to keep Collins or Warner (as if they would have been better somehow, despite their greater lack of mobility and equally poor decision-making)--we probably would have drafted a QB already or looking at one this coming draft. Alex Smith or Eli Manning...hmmm...

 

 

Which raises another question I dont' have an answer too. ....could the G-Men get a first rounder if they were looking to move Manning....if so....high, middle or low in that round.

 

I think they have the right guy...I'm just curious as to his current street value.

 

C. Wagon

[Virginia Giant]

Rivers made the Pro Bowl last year. Rivers has not been good thus far this year, giving him one good season and one inconsistent season. I will take that over 4 inconsistent seasons, however, Big Ben has always been my favorite, and I pushed for him before that draft. Also, it is entirely impossible for you to know if we would have had Merriman or not. They used our pick to get him, so one thing is sure... he wouldn't be a Charger today.

Chances are if we draft Ben either Kerry stays or Warner starts all year and we finish with a better record, so that pick would be higher and Merriman wouldkn't be there. And your right, he wouldn't be a Charger, but he might be a Cowboy, or Eagle, or Redskin.

 

We could have used linebackers too.

Yeah because drafting by need is something we've excelled at. Don't we have another defensive end we could put at linebacker anyway?

[Nas]

...And the fair weather fans have taken the field. Watch as they turn on and create scape goates of individual players.

 

I've always stood by Eli... and here I am still believe in him.

 

He had a terrible game no doubt about that. He's not an Elite QB but he's far better than anyone we've had in my life time... including Phil Simms (not that I watched the guy... I was too young to pay attention).

 

And to say we should've never let Kurt Warner go? Holly crap.

 

 

[Herc]

Which raises another question I dont' have an answer too. ....could the G-Men get a first rounder if they were looking to move Manning....if so....high, middle or low in that round.

 

I think they have the right guy...I'm just curious as to his current street value.

 

C. Wagon

 

i seriously doubt it, every team overvalues their picks, randy moss went for a 4th rounder, the colts and seahawks couldn't get 2nd rounders for edge and alexander when they were in their primes.

[xxi-xxv]

The weather had nothing to do with it today.

 

In the sun, it felt like 55-60 with no wind. Saints game last year it was pretty nice too.

 

I think it's just that it happens to get cold when his arm gets tired and teams get film on him.

 

It wasn't even that cold in December last year. Nor was it in December in 2005.

 

It's just that our guy is inconsistent as anything and needs support from his players in order to produce.

 

The gametime temp was 48 degrees. 55-60 in the sun I do not know what you were drinking yesterday, but I want some.

 

I am not talking bitter, frigid cold here, I am talking cold, as in not what it is in September and in a climate controlled dome, anywhere from 68 degrees and above.

 

Forget a frigid ice bowl conditons. I guess I modif my statement to he only plays well when the temp is above 68 and the weather conditions are ideal.

[fishgutmartyr]

Chances are if we draft Ben either Kerry stays or Warner starts all year and we finish with a better record, so that pick would be higher and Merriman wouldkn't be there. And your right, he wouldn't be a Charger, but he might be a Cowboy, or Eagle, or Redskin.

1. if Kerry left when Eli was drafted, what makes you think he stays with Ben?
2. Kerry wanted a long term contract. That simply wasn't happening.
3. Warner was the starter for the first 2-3 games of the 8 game slide in 2004. And that was before the hardest part of the schedule. I remember the talk being we were winning despite Warner's play.
4. We were squeaking by on a great turnover ratio in the first half of 2004. Then we had injuries, and the D fell apart.

You're talking maybe the 14th pick instead of the 12th pick. Whoopie.

[boohyah]

1. if Kerry left when Eli was drafted, what makes you think he stays with Ben?
2. Kerry wanted a long term contract. That simply wasn't happening.
3. Warner was the starter for the first 2-3 games of the 8 game slide in 2004. And that was before the hardest part of the schedule. I remember the talk being we were winning despite Warner's play.
4. We were squeaking by on a great turnover ratio in the first half of 2004. Then we had injuries, and the D fell apart.

You're talking maybe the 14th pick instead of the 12th pick. Whoopie.

 

Accorsi says in his book that when Eli was drafted, Collins barged into his office and demanded to be released. It wouldn't have mattered which QB was drafted. And this was with Collins slated to be the starter that year. When Warner was brought in, it was to be the QB for at least that year, possibly more.

 

I do disagree with Fish on the way Warner was pulled, but we've had this argument before.

[Virginia Giant]

1. if Kerry left when Eli was drafted, what makes you think he stays with Ben?
2. Kerry wanted a long term contract. That simply wasn't happening.
3. Warner was the starter for the first 2-3 games of the 8 game slide in 2004. And that was before the hardest part of the schedule. I remember the talk being we were winning despite Warner's play.
4. We were squeaking by on a great turnover ratio in the first half of 2004. Then we had injuries, and the D fell apart.

You're talking maybe the 14th pick instead of the 12th pick. Whoopie.

You're right about Kerry leaving, not sure what i was talking about.

 

 

Yeah Warner wasn't great and he was involved in the begining of the drop off, but he was playing better than Eli played most of his rookie season and I believe we would have snuck in a few more wins had he started the whole season.

 

My only point was Merriman probly would not have been there for us had we had that pick, not saying we wouldn't have gotten a valuble player, but I don't think it would have been Meriman.

[mws44]

I meant no offense, but it all starts with the quarterback. If a receiver breaks the wrong way but would have been covered anyway, you don't throw the pass especially directly to the opposing team's DB. He got (and gets) shook easily and tossed the ball...it wasn't necessarily ALL his fault but you can't throw 3 touchdowns (and a 4th that was in our red zone) and spot the team 28 points and expect your team to be behind you. That's on the QB. And it all starts there, like I said...

 

And you can't continually put your own defense in those positions either, by turning it over. They gave up 13 legitimate points, and held their RB that was supposed to run all over us basically in check.

 

No offense taken. I just found the comment that my post was the most rediculous one you've seen hilarious, with some of the stuff I've read here (Especially from badegg and his alter ego).

 

I agree with most of what you say in this post. My only point on the receivers possibly not running the right routes, is durring a hot read the ball has to leave the QBs hand so fast he has to trust the receiver to be in the spot he expects them to be in. But I agree it is absolutely unacceptable to turn the ball over inside our 20.

 

 

[gateb]

The gametime temp was 48 degrees. 55-60 in the sun I do not know what you were drinking yesterday, but I want some.

 

I am not talking bitter, frigid cold here, I am talking cold, as in not what it is in September and in a climate controlled dome, anywhere from 68 degrees and above.

 

Forget a frigid ice bowl conditons. I guess I modif my statement to he only plays well when the temp is above 68 and the weather conditions are ideal.

I sit directly in the sun, and I took off every layer except my t-shirt and jersey. It definitely felt above 50, and it looked sunny on the field too. Ask anyone that sat in the 300s in the sunlight they'll agree with me.

 

It was warm against the 9ers and he played average against a piss poor secondary. It was below 50 last year against Dallas and he played a very good game.

 

I don't think weather has anything to do with it. If his play is being brought down by 50 degrees and sunny with no wind he shouldn't even be in the NFL.

 

The weather is warm when his arm is fresh, the weather gets chillier when his arm gets tired and teams figure the Giants offense out.

[xxi-xxv]

I sit directly in the sun, and I took off every layer except my t-shirt and jersey. It definitely felt above 50, and it looked sunny on the field too. Ask anyone that sat in the 300s in the sunlight they'll agree with me.

 

It was warm against the 9ers and he played average against a piss poor secondary. It was below 50 last year against Dallas and he played a very good game.

 

I don't think weather has anything to do with it. If his play is being brought down by 50 degrees and sunny with no wind he shouldn't even be in the NFL.

 

The weather is warm when his arm is fresh, the weather gets chillier when his arm gets tired and teams figure the Giants offense out.

 

maybe at 1 pm and the 48 degree temp it was warm in the 300's, but that sun went in quick and like I said the 1PM gametime temp was 48. It was downright cold, by 3. You can see it in how he warms up when its cold, its like he does not get a good grip or is not comfortable. You cliam its his arm being tired, yet give me late season games where he has played well, that too defeats the arguement in thet regard. He just seems less comfortable when the weather conditions are not like what he grew up playing in and of course playing at OLE Miss.

[fishgutmartyr]

My only point was Merriman probly would not have been there for us had we had that pick, not saying we wouldn't have gotten a valuble player, but I don't think it would have been Meriman.

 

I agree with you then. I don't know if we would have taken Merriman even if we did have the same pick.

[JMFP]

maybe at 1 pm and the 48 degree temp it was warm in the 300's, but that sun went in quick and like I said the 1PM gametime temp was 48. It was downright cold, by 3. You can see it in how he warms up when its cold, its like he does not get a good grip or is not comfortable. You cliam its his arm being tired, yet give me late season games where he has played well, that too defeats the arguement in thet regard. He just seems less comfortable when the weather conditions are not like what he grew up playing in and of course playing at OLE Miss.

 

I've said this before, and it bears repeating - Manning needs to talk to Phil Simms about becoming an effective cold-weather game manager. Maybe he should start wearing a glove or something.

 

Back in the day, I was always thrilled in late November and early December when the weather got poor in the Meadowlands. It gave the Giants a distinct advantage, because Simms always played the conditions better than the opposing QB. It's the same reason why Favre has historically been so dominant up in Lambeau.

 

If Manning can't handle cold weather and bad conditions, he has no business being the QB of the Giants.

[rphguy]

Why are you so hard on Eli, Blue in Canada?

 

I mean, he threw THREE TD passes today! You're just an Eli hater! :lol:

he threw 4 if you count the one to the giants receivers.

[rphguy]

I've said this before, and it bears repeating - Manning needs to talk to Phil Simms about becoming an effective cold-weather game manager. Maybe he should start wearing a glove or something.

 

Back in the day, I was always thrilled in late November and early December when the weather got poor in the Meadowlands. It gave the Giants a distinct advantage, because Simms always played the conditions better than the opposing QB. It's the same reason why Favre has historically been so dominant up in Lambeau.

 

If Manning can't handle cold weather and bad conditions, he has no business being the QB of the Giants.

they should have built a dome stadium the year he started then.

[rphguy]

I meant no offense, but it all starts with the quarterback. If a receiver breaks the wrong way but would have been covered anyway, you don't throw the pass especially directly to the opposing team's DB. He got (and gets) shook easily and tossed the ball...it wasn't necessarily ALL his fault but you can't throw 3 touchdowns (and a 4th that was in our red zone) and spot the team 28 points and expect your team to be behind you. That's on the QB. And it all starts there, like I said...

 

And you can't continually put your own defense in those positions either, by turning it over. They gave up 13 legitimate points, and held their RB that was supposed to run all over us basically in check.

I agree with this post.

Eli stunk like that new sewage drug kids are getting high on.

I'm an Eli guy, too, since I am an Ole Miss grad.

But I can't defend his play at all this game.

As for the tipped ball interception not being his fault? He threw it in a place or in a way that a lineman could tip it. It is his fault.

I believe our team, as a whole, is very lacking, which makes an average QB a bad one.... or a slightly better than average one be very, very average.

[Treehugger]

As for the tipped ball interception not being his fault? He threw it in a place or in a way that a lineman could tip it. It is his fault.

Especially if you look at that drive. They marched up the field tot he 11 with some uncharacteristic nice passes (admittedly vs the prevent) then 1st down - ball swatted down by DE (poor throw)...2nd down - thrown into O'Hara's back on an ugly screen (terrible throw)...3rd down - balled tipped at line for INT-6. That series was 14 points worth of fuck-ups.

[gateb]

maybe at 1 pm and the 48 degree temp it was warm in the 300's, but that sun went in quick and like I said the 1PM gametime temp was 48. It was downright cold, by 3. You can see it in how he warms up when its cold, its like he does not get a good grip or is not comfortable. You cliam its his arm being tired, yet give me late season games where he has played well, that too defeats the arguement in thet regard. He just seems less comfortable when the weather conditions are not like what he grew up playing in and of course playing at OLE Miss.

How does that defeat my argument? Later on in the season is when his arm would get tired and that could explain the fact he never has good games in December.

 

In Jacksonville last year he played in warm weather in week 11 but that did not to do anything to help. Tennessee wasn't that cold either. Dallas was below 50, and he had one of his strongest showings of the year.

 

You may be right, and if the Giants believe what you do, he should be let go as soon as we can. No way our QB should have such a huge drop off in play when it is a little below 50.

[Gspotter]

We can argue all we want; the kid's going to be here for few more years. He won't be here afterwards though. The crowd will be on him soon and this crowd isn't forgiving.

 

Once they hate you, it's Fasseltown for you. Also, he's never going to be great; he is as Salsbury and Co. stated: good, not great and wholly dependent upon play action; he's not a pure pocket passer which to me (means) that he can't read defenses well.

 

Quote the stats about TD's, compare him with his brother, but in the end, he's only able to throw to a really tall receiver and he can't throw into tight spots. He is a 54 million dollar error that we're stuck with, that is until next draft season when we can put someone behind him that has a spark. I don't know who, but we need to push him, the kid's leash is getting shorter and we need to prepare as if he'll not change his habits.

[randoff]

We can argue all we want; the kid's going to be here for few more years.

Also, he's never going to be great; he is as Salsbury and Co. stated: good, not great and wholly dependent upon play action; he's not a pure pocket passer which to me (means) that he can't read defenses well.

 

Quote the stats about TD's, compare him with his brother, but in the end, he's only able to throw to a really tall receiver and he can't throw into tight spots. He is a 54 million dollar error that we're stuck with, that is until next draft season when we can put someone behind him that has a spark. I don't know who, but we need to push him, the kid's leash is getting shorter and we need to prepare as if he'll not change his habits.

 

Well put!

[Treehugger]

You're right about Kerry leaving, not sure what i was talking about.

Yeah Warner wasn't great and he was involved in the begining of the drop off, but he was playing better than Eli played most of his rookie season and I believe we would have snuck in a few more wins had he started the whole season.

 

My only point was Merriman probly would not have been there for us had we had that pick, not saying we wouldn't have gotten a valuble player, but I don't think it would have been Meriman.

This is Kurt 'Hold...Hold...Hold...SACK!' Warner we're talking about, right? I was at his last game (vs Chicago), a game we could have won but didn't largely due to Warner's ineffectiveness.

[Treehugger]

I don't know about the "can't throw into tight spots" criticism. He threaded the needle on TD passes a few times earlier this year. I think he just gets rattled too easily then his whole play just goes to shit.

[randoff]

Where is the QB coach in all of this Eli mess? Isn't the QB coach there to also correct Eli on his shoddy mechanics? Aren't the coaches working on Eli? I realize that practice speed and real game speed is different....but sometimes it seems like Shockey and Plax aren't practicing with Eli and are 'strange' recievers to Eli.

 

When Tiki was a fumbler, the COACHING staff fixed it! Eli's a mechanical mess and I don't see a fix. They seem to be letting him continue to chuck no look passes, allow him to get too many passes batted and this 'off the back foot' throwing is so habitual for Eli. We notice it as fans BUT are the coaches noticing it?