Joe Torre A Menace To The Bullpen

[nosebleedjints]

I've been saying and people have been blowing me off as being naive that Joe Torre, as far bullpen management is concerned, sucks.

 

I understand him bringing in Farnsworth this weekend because the bullpen was short.

 

My problem with him is his gross negligence when it comes to abusing pitchers.

Somebody on BBI coined the perfect phrase "Torred" and it's true.

 

There was an article written two years ago which I thought perfectly summarized his incompetence with the bullpen.

 

It stated Torre typically finds a reliever who is pitching effective, and will use that pitcher adnesyum disregarding the score and how many innings, appearances, and consecutive days the pitcher has worked.

Several cases exemplified this, going all the way back to the dynasty in the late 90s when he would almost exclusively rely on Wettland, Rivera, Nelson than Stanton, Mendoza, and even Grimsley.

Given the Yankees plethora of bullpen depth it did not become a big deal UNTIL Nelson left at which point Rivera was given an insane workload in 2001 which really was to blame for him blowing game 7 (and come to think a 6 out save, come on that is NOT choking).

The next year in 2002 Rivera missed a ton of games likely stemming from 2001 overuse.

 

What did Torre do?

The Yankees signed Steve Karsay who Torre completely abused, and while effective, he completely fell apart in 2003.

He was injured and never really recovered.

Stanton left to go to the Mets and also had lost it, though age probably was factor.

Let's move on to 2004 where the Yankees had a really effective bullpen most of the regular with Rivera, Gordon, and Quantrill, then Sturtze.

However by August Quantrill lost it followed by Gordon in September.

In October Rivera blew two saves that allowed the Red Sox to come back in the series.

I was hard on Rivera but after looking back, the 2nd save he came on with a runner at 3rd and no outs and only allowed a sac fly, hardly a real blow.

The other blow was the night before when he walked the leadoff batter in the ninth, however that was a six out save after a ridiculous workload in the regular season.

 

Move onto 2005, Sturtze was completely abused, got injured, and has never really come back.

Gordon left after 2005 and has been injured since.

In 2006 Proctor became effective, and Torre gave him an insane workload over more than 100 innings.

Come 2007 Proctor was useless.

Now we move to Vizcaino, he started slow, and then became an effective 8th inning guy.

What do you know, Torre began abusing Vizcaino by having near the top in appearances, coming into games on almost nightly, using him even if the score was not close but just at the first sign of unrest.

Now Vizcaino has a tired shoulder.

 

I am so happy the Yankees put in place the Joba rules because you simply know without them he'd be wearing out his arm.

I found it funny yesterday and this weekend the Yankees won without the Vizcaino or Joba on Saturday and Sunday.

While Sunday's game was close this is what the Red Sox have done well, they DO NOT overwork their relievers, they give them days off even if the score is close.

Torre always is afraid to this and I have little thought he would have used one of both Sunday.

On Saturday while Bruney was ineffective the Yankees had a huge lead, but again that is the type of game I've seen Torre MANY times bring in his 8th inning man in a blowout.

The best for me was in June on that Friday in Boston when the Yankees were beating up the Red Sox in a blowout and he still brought in Proctor in the ninth.

 

I simply can't stand how clueless and irresponsible Torre is.

When it comes to positional players, yes, you use the hot hand.

When it comes to relieves, definitely you should rely and rank relievers among who is and doing best but to consistently have it year after year where one if not two or more of your reliever lead the league in appearances and innings, this guy is clueless.

He stubbornly refuses not to treat relievers differently than positional players.

 

What gets me is people who defend by saying, who is Torre to use.

I understand the Yankees bullpen doesn't have the depth of the 90s, but so what.

Who does consistently year in and year out?

Good bullpens and relievers are like oil, they are scarce so you have to manage and conserve.

This means bringing them in when their really needed, this means giving EVERYBODY work, not just the same guy every night.

Look at what did this year with Edward Ramirez having him sit for two weeks.

Classic Torre, abusing one pitcher and neglecting the rest.

He is extremely stubborn and once he finds his man, it doesn't matter if you pitch 2 days in a row or if the score is 8-1, if a runner is on base in the 7th inning his top man is coming in, totally disregarding the team's need to preserve men for the stretch and the pitcher's health.

What do they need to, have the Vizcaino rules?

 

[Herc]

who argues that joe is good with the bullpen? i think everyone is in agreement that it's a serious flaw of his. why do you think cashamn had to institute the 'joba rules'

[nosebleedjints]

who argues that joe is good with the bullpen? i think everyone is in agreement that it's a serious flaw of his. why do you think cashamn had to institute the 'joba rules'

When I've made this argument to some people you wouldn't believe how many rise to his defense claiming "Well who else is Torre supposed to use...Farnsworth" or "He's trying to win games, all teams use their best men."

I hear that ALL the time for Torre supporters.