Peter King's MMQB thoughts on the Giants & Eli.

[BIGBLUE01]

Im startin to see the communication breakdown now, we are saying the same things and not realizing it. I misunderstood you guys, Treehugger and booyah. It sounds like youre saying that its partly Eli and partly coaching and the injuries.

 

Thats what Im saying.

[Treehugger]

Im startin to see the communication breakdown now, we are saying the same things and not realizing it. I misunderstood you guys, Treehugger and booyah. It sounds like youre saying that its partly Eli and partly coaching and the injuries.

 

Thats what Im saying.

Totally. I'm not putting the whole thing on Eli, but I'm not letting him off free either. He'll never be the guy we want him to be until he improves his accuracy and consistancy. The team will never play the way we want until they're all on the damn field.

 

I think the media/receiver chemistry/playcalling/coaching issues are all minor in comparison to those two issues.

[Nas]

Im startin to see the communication breakdown now, we are saying the same things and not realizing it. I misunderstood you guys, Treehugger and booyah. It sounds like youre saying that its partly Eli and partly coaching and the injuries.

 

Thats what Im saying.

 

Yeah but boohyah is always wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[boohyah]

Other than Tom Brady and Roethlisberger, how many of the so called great cant misses win Super Bowls early and and have tremendous success? Lets take a look at some of the high 1st round picks at QB over the last 30 years that have had successful careers and or won Super Bowls.

 

Joe Montana, took him until his 3rd season to both make the playoffs and win a SB(and he was a 3rd rounder)

Phil Simms, took him until his 6th season to make the playoffs and 8th to win a SB.

Dan Marino, made the playoffs in his first year and took a team to the Sb the next.

John Elway, made the playoffs his 2nd year and made it to a SB in his 4th, did not win one until his 15th and 16th

Steve Young, took him 2 leagues, 2 teams and a great supporting cast in his 8th year to start and make the

playoffs.

Vinny Testaverde, made the playoffs in his 8th year, with his 2nd team

Troy Aikman, made the playoffs in year 3 and won a SB in year 4

Jim Kelly, made playoffs in his 4th year and SB appearance in his 6th

(Exclude Brett Favre from this as he was a 2nd round pick).

Drew Bledsoe, SB in year 4.

 

Now lets look at some the guys that were so so as 1st round highly touted Qb's

Tony Eason, terrible after early success with NE in a very watered down AFC of the mid 80's

Ken O'Brien, playoff QB in years 3 and 4. Killed by NY media and never had good coaching

Jeff George, a true talent an even truer piece of shit

Rick Mirer

Now lets look at some of the busts.

Andre Ware

Turk Shonert

Todd Blackledge

David Klingler

Dan McGwire

Ryan Leaf

Akili Smith

Tim Couch

The shittiness of this bunch is not even worth mentioning what they could not do.

 

Now I have to ask all the ELI haters and lovers. Is ELI anywhere near as bad as the latter bunch in that group? The honest objectionable answer is NO. He has had more success than that group of shit combined. Same question holds for the so so guys? Only real non bias answer is that he has had equal to or more success than most of them. As for the first list, well thats easy no he is nowhere near those guys at this point.

 

I think the one common denominator we can take out of the ELI experience of the first 3 years is that he is not a total bust like the latter group. That should make Giants fans feel good. He is at least as good as the middle group if not better, which should make Giants fans at least hope for more and he is nowhere near the first group, but like most of them he has time on his side.

 

To call him a bust or a question mark after 2 years as a starter and 50 tds and a playoff experience stems from a media hatred of his draft day handling. So be it. Looking at it objectionably there is no way to call him a bust.

[boohyah]

You guys like that response don't ya?

[boohyah]

Yeah but boohyah is always wrong.

 

 

I agree Nas, i'm always wrong.

 

But you're a real manly man!

[Nas]

I agree Nas, i'm always wrong.

 

But you're a real manly man!

 

:brooding:

[fishgutmartyr]

Other than Tom Brady and Roethlisberger, how many of the so called great cant misses win Super Bowls early and and have tremendous success? Lets take a look at some of the high 1st round picks at QB over the last 30 years that have had successful careers and or won Super Bowls.

 

Joe Montana, took him until his 3rd season to both make the playoffs and win a SB(and he was a 3rd rounder)

Phil Simms, took him until his 6th season to make the playoffs and 8th to win a SB.

Dan Marino, made the playoffs in his first year and took a team to the Sb the next.

John Elway, made the playoffs his 2nd year and made it to a SB in his 4th, did not win one until his 15th and 16th

Steve Young, took him 2 leagues, 2 teams and a great supporting cast in his 8th year to start and make the

playoffs.

Vinny Testaverde, made the playoffs in his 8th year, with his 2nd team

Troy Aikman, made the playoffs in year 3 and won a SB in year 4

Jim Kelly, made playoffs in his 4th year and SB appearance in his 6th

(Exclude Brett Favre from this as he was a 2nd round pick).

Drew Bledsoe, SB in year 4.

 

Now lets look at some the guys that were so so as 1st round highly touted Qb's

Tony Eason, terrible after early success with NE in a very watered down AFC of the mid 80's

Ken O'Brien, playoff QB in years 3 and 4. Killed by NY media and never had good coaching

Jeff George, a true talent an even truer piece of shit

Rick Mirer

Now lets look at some of the busts.

Andre Ware

Turk Shonert

Todd Blackledge

David Klingler

Dan McGwire

Ryan Leaf

Akili Smith

Tim Couch

The shittiness of this bunch is not even worth mentioning what they could not do.

 

Now I have to ask all the ELI haters and lovers. Is ELI anywhere near as bad as the latter bunch in that group? The honest objectionable answer is NO. He has had more success than that group of shit combined. Same question holds for the so so guys? Only real non bias answer is that he has had equal to or more success than most of them. As for the first list, well thats easy no he is nowhere near those guys at this point.

 

I think the one common denominator we can take out of the ELI experience of the first 3 years is that he is not a total bust like the latter group. That should make Giants fans feel good. He is at least as good as the middle group if not better, which should make Giants fans at least hope for more and he is nowhere near the first group, but like most of them he has time on his side.

 

To call him a bust or a question mark after 2 years as a starter and 50 tds and a playoff experience stems from a media hatred of his draft day handling. So be it. Looking at it objectionably there is no way to call him a bust.

 

Great post, but some minor bones to pick.

1. Jim Kelly's career began in the USFL (2 years as a Houston Gambler).
2. If you're not including Brett Farve because he was 2nd round, why are you including Montana (a third)?
3. I don't think Brady (6th round) was ever considered a "can't miss"
4. As much as I grew to love Phil, I don't think he was considered a "can't miss." I remember the tearing of shirts and gnashing of teeth when he was drafted.

But you made your point. And it is a good point.

 

Why would anyone want Culpepper on this team, regardless of what they think of Manning? The guy has a huge contract and has yet to show ANYTHING since his injury. For god's sake, he lost his starting job to Joey Harrington last season!

 

You may as well bring back Warner.

[boohyah]

Great post, but some minor bones to pick.

1. Jim Kelly's career began in the USFL (2 years as a Houston Gambler).
2. If you're not including Brett Farve because he was 2nd round, why are you including Montana (a third)?
3. I don't think Brady (6th round) was ever considered a "can't miss"
4. As much as I grew to love Phil, I don't think he was considered a "can't miss." I remember the tearing of shirts and gnashing of teeth when he was drafted.

But you made your point. And it is a good point.

 

Why would anyone want Culpepper on this team, regardless of what they think of Manning? The guy has a huge contract and has yet to show ANYTHING since his injury. For god's sake, he lost his starting job to Joey Harrington last season!

 

You may as well bring back Warner.

 

 

Fish, are you happy with the backups we have now?. Because I certainly am not.

[Treehugger]

Other than Tom Brady and Roethlisberger, how many of the so called great cant misses win Super Bowls early and and have tremendous success? Lets take a look at some of the high 1st round picks at QB over the last 30 years that have had successful careers and or won Super Bowls.

 

Joe Montana, took him until his 3rd season to both make the playoffs and win a SB(and he was a 3rd rounder)

Phil Simms, took him until his 6th season to make the playoffs and 8th to win a SB.

Dan Marino, made the playoffs in his first year and took a team to the Sb the next.

John Elway, made the playoffs his 2nd year and made it to a SB in his 4th, did not win one until his 15th and 16th

Steve Young, took him 2 leagues, 2 teams and a great supporting cast in his 8th year to start and make the

playoffs.

Vinny Testaverde, made the playoffs in his 8th year, with his 2nd team

Troy Aikman, made the playoffs in year 3 and won a SB in year 4

Jim Kelly, made playoffs in his 4th year and SB appearance in his 6th

(Exclude Brett Favre from this as he was a 2nd round pick).

Drew Bledsoe, SB in year 4.

 

Now lets look at some the guys that were so so as 1st round highly touted Qb's

Tony Eason, terrible after early success with NE in a very watered down AFC of the mid 80's

Ken O'Brien, playoff QB in years 3 and 4. Killed by NY media and never had good coaching

Jeff George, a true talent an even truer piece of shit

Rick Mirer

Now lets look at some of the busts.

Andre Ware

Turk Shonert

Todd Blackledge

David Klingler

Dan McGwire

Ryan Leaf

Akili Smith

Tim Couch

The shittiness of this bunch is not even worth mentioning what they could not do.

 

Now I have to ask all the ELI haters and lovers. Is ELI anywhere near as bad as the latter bunch in that group? The honest objectionable answer is NO. He has had more success than that group of shit combined. Same question holds for the so so guys? Only real non bias answer is that he has had equal to or more success than most of them. As for the first list, well thats easy no he is nowhere near those guys at this point.

 

I think the one common denominator we can take out of the ELI experience of the first 3 years is that he is not a total bust like the latter group. That should make Giants fans feel good. He is at least as good as the middle group if not better, which should make Giants fans at least hope for more and he is nowhere near the first group, but like most of them he has time on his side.

 

To call him a bust or a question mark after 2 years as a starter and 50 tds and a playoff experience stems from a media hatred of his draft day handling. So be it. Looking at it objectionably there is no way to call him a bust.

a) No one in this thread said he was a bust. We said he has problems.

 

b) Those comparisons are almost meaningless IMO. QBs don't win SBs, TEAMS do. Simms has no rings without LT. Namath has a ring despite his play in the finals and off-field actions. His D dragged him to the top. If you want to rate them as individuals, Eli had a lower passer rating than fucking Romo last season. That's not good enough, not just for a #1 overall, but for our #1 QB. He has to improve. I expect more than "not a bust".

[boohyah]

a) No one in this thread said he was a bust. We said he has problems.

 

b) Those comparisons are almost meaningless IMO. QBs don't win SBs, TEAMS do. Simms has no rings without LT. Namath has a ring despite his play in the finals and off-field actions. His D dragged him to the top. If you want to rate them as individuals, Eli had a lower passer rating than fucking Romo last season. That's not good enough, not just for a #1 overall, but for our #1 QB. He has to improve. I expect more than "not a bust".

 

Tree, I agree. There seems to be an unwritten rule with Eli, you can't criticize the guy at all.

 

Got news for everyone, some times Tiki didn't block worth a shit = Tiki is a bust.

[fishgutmartyr]

Fish, are you happy with the backups we have now?. Because I certainly am not.

Backups are almost by definition not really good enough to start, but that's nothing you don't already know. The thought of Hasselbeck starting gives me cold streaks along my back and neck. Lorenzen hasn't been a nightmare in preseason, and we really haven't seen (thank god) what he can do in a real game, except get short yardage in QB sneaks. I honestly don't know anything about Wright.

 

But if the big bitch about Manning is accuracy/ints, I don't see where bringing in Culpepper, who has turned into an interception machine since his return, is an improvement. Add to that the cap issues involved in bringing him in, and whatever we give up in a trade (at this point), where exactly is the value?

 

If you want to improve the backups, that's fine. But between the cap hit, the trade hit, the decline in play, and the potential for QB controversy because he has a name, I don't think Culpepper would be that improvement.

[xxi-xxv]

Great post, but some minor bones to pick.

1. Jim Kelly's career began in the USFL (2 years as a Houston Gambler).
2. If you're not including Brett Farve because he was 2nd round, why are you including Montana (a third)?
3. I don't think Brady (6th round) was ever considered a "can't miss"
4. As much as I grew to love Phil, I don't think he was considered a "can't miss." I remember the tearing of shirts and gnashing of teeth when he was drafted.

But you made your point. And it is a good point.

 

Why would anyone want Culpepper on this team, regardless of what they think of Manning? The guy has a huge contract and has yet to show ANYTHING since his injury. For god's sake, he lost his starting job to Joey Harrington last season!

 

You may as well bring back Warner.

 

I guess I brought up Montana and Brady because over the last 30 years they are the measure of what people have derived should be what you need in a franchise QB.

 

I remember Kelly as a Gamblers and also I forgot to equally mention Young as an LA Express, so in his case it strengthens the idea that he needed time.

 

Guess Phil was never that "can't miss", but he was a first round pick, 7th overall and George Young and his braintrust I assume did not take him there thinking he could not be a Super Bowl caliber QB.

 

I guess what kills me is this notion that ELI is in a short leash, that its make or break now, when in actuality its not and the results could be far worse as seen by some of the crap that has been drafted over the past 30 years. Eli needs to improve in many areas, but really most young Qb's do, even Roethlisberger showed he has flaws in his league leading INT total in 06 and Rivers looked mighty mortal down the stretch last year and in the playoffs.

[xxi-xxv]

Great post, but some minor bones to pick.

1. Jim Kelly's career began in the USFL (2 years as a Houston Gambler).
2. If you're not including Brett Farve because he was 2nd round, why are you including Montana (a third)?
3. I don't think Brady (6th round) was ever considered a "can't miss"
4. As much as I grew to love Phil, I don't think he was considered a "can't miss." I remember the tearing of shirts and gnashing of teeth when he was drafted.

But you made your point. And it is a good point.

 

Why would anyone want Culpepper on this team, regardless of what they think of Manning? The guy has a huge contract and has yet to show ANYTHING since his injury. For god's sake, he lost his starting job to Joey Harrington last season!

 

You may as well bring back Warner.

 

I guess I brought up Montana and Brady because over the last 30 years they are the measure of what people have derived should be what you need in a franchise QB.

 

I remember Kelly as a Gamblers and also I forgot to equally mention Young as an LA Express, so in his case it strengthens the idea that he needed time.

 

Guess Phil was never that "can't miss", but he was a first round pick, 7th overall and George Young and his braintrust I assume did not take him there thinking he could not be a Super Bowl caliber QB.

 

I guess what kills me is this notion that ELI is in a short leash, that its make or break now, when in actuality its not and the results could be far worse as seen by some of the crap that has been drafted over the past 30 years. Eli needs to improve in many areas, but really most young Qb's do, even Roethlisberger showed he has flaws in his league leading INT total in 06 and Rivers looked mighty mortal down the stretch last year and in the playoffs.

[xxi-xxv]

Tree, I agree. There seems to be an unwritten rule with Eli, you can't criticize the guy at all.

 

Got news for everyone, some times Tiki didn't block worth a shit = Tiki is a bust.

I think defense of him not being a bust thus far is aimed more at the dolts like badegg and not at the people that criticize his play. Like I said, he certainly has not shown he is in that cant miss range yet, but he certainly has not shown he is what that moron claims him to be.

 

There is a lot to criticize him about. Funny you mention Tiki, talk about a guy who we could have been critical of in his first 3 years, kind of reiterates the point to morons like EGG that guys take time and making assumptions early are quite stupid.

[fishgutmartyr]

I guess I brought up Montana and Brady because over the last 30 years they are the measure of what people have derived should be what you need in a franchise QB.

That's reasonable.

I remember Kelly as a Gamblers and also I forgot to equally mention Young as an LA Express, so in his case it strengthens the idea that he needed time.

That's why I mentioned it.

Guess Phil was never that "can't miss", but he was a first round pick, 7th overall and George Young and his braintrust I assume did not take him there thinking he could not be a Super Bowl caliber QB.

 

I guess what kills me is this notion that ELI is in a short leash, that its make or break now, when in actuality its not and the results could be far worse as seen by some of the crap that has been drafted over the past 30 years. Eli needs to improve in many areas, but really most young Qb's do, even Roethlisberger showed he has flaws in his league leading INT total in 06 and Rivers looked mighty mortal down the stretch last year and in the playoffs.

 

If you told me at the end of 2003 that we would be in the playoffs 2 out of the next 3 years with a QB drafted in 2004, I would have laughed at you. I wouldn't have even expected to be in contention for the first two. Granted, getting in last year was a fluke, but things could be much worse than they actually are.

[BIGBLUE01]

Great post, but some minor bones to pick.

1. Jim Kelly's career began in the USFL (2 years as a Houston Gambler).
2. If you're not including Brett Farve because he was 2nd round, why are you including Montana (a third)?
3. I don't think Brady (6th round) was ever considered a "can't miss"
4. As much as I grew to love Phil, I don't think he was considered a "can't miss." I remember the tearing of shirts and gnashing of teeth when he was drafted.

But you made your point. And it is a good point.

 

Why would anyone want Culpepper on this team, regardless of what they think of Manning? The guy has a huge contract and has yet to show ANYTHING since his injury. For god's sake, he lost his starting job to Joey Harrington last season!You may as well bring back Warner.

 

 

He didnt lose his job to Harrington, he got injured, and Harrington replaced him. Theres a difference.

 

But were not here to argue that, its a matter of would Culpepper be a better backup than what we have. IMO, not better than Wright, but better than the rest. I actually like Lorenzen, but dont know to much about him. Havent seen him do anything but QB snaeaks. Better than Hasselbeck, but I like his genes and his experience as a backup. Also, w/o Moss, Daunte has been trash. Coincidence?? I dont know, but it concerns me. Wright has done a splendid job as a backup in Baltimore (eventually started) and in Dallas. So, I'd take him over Daunte at this point.