Here is what kills me about Giants fans...

[boohyah]

Agree with you 100% Booyah. Compared to his twin Ronde...MeMe Barber got to the point where he forgot the flawed early years and started to think of himself as being bigger than the organization. I have had some screwed up bosses...but the one thing I never and will never do is bad mouth an old boss to a new boss. Its just an immature and self defeating thing to do.

 

You hear a lot about how Shockey mouths off, but for the most part, when Shockey had his outburst last year, it was right after the game. In fact for all the talk about what a jerk Shockey is, but when he cools down he actually can be reasonable. But Tiki's comments were calculated, and that's what so disappointing about it. For a guy who generally seemed to carry himself well off the field, you hoped he'd take the high road with his comments, and he wouldn't.

 

But that's the same with other players too. If you put LT is perspective also, he was a great player and we all rooted for him and he's a definite hall of famer. But he was a jerk, and you can't dismiss that.

[boohyah]

Big B, senility IS setting in. Sorry Pal.

 

Charles, go to the GD section, I've dedicated a topic to you.

 

 

 

Get someone to help you get there.

[boohyah]

once again, well said. don't expect a response from Jim though, he tends to shy away from debate.

 

He has some points to what he's saying, I wouldn't dismiss everything and if he disputes the point I'm making I'd like to hear it out.

[NeMesiS]

Agree with you 100% Booyah. Compared to his twin Ronde...MeMe Barber got to the point where he forgot the flawed early years and started to think of himself as being bigger than the organization. I have had some screwed up bosses...but the one thing I never and will never do is bad mouth an old boss to a new boss. Its just an immature and self defeating thing to do.

[boohyah]

Nobody loves his nicknames more than Taylor. Who else dreams up of the "spagster"?

[NeMesiS]

Nobody loves his nicknames more than Taylor. Who else dreams up of the "spagster"?

I know, I'm going to start calling him Chris Berman.

[Herc]

You hear a lot about how Shockey mouths off, but for the most part, when Shockey had his outburst last year, it was right after the game. In fact for all the talk about what a jerk Shockey is, but when he cools down he actually can be reasonable. But Tiki's comments were calculated, and that's what so disappointing about it. For a guy who generally seemed to carry himself well off the field, you hoped he'd take the high road with his comments, and he wouldn't.

 

But that's the same with other players too. If you put LT is perspective also, he was a great player and we all rooted for him and he's a definite hall of famer. But he was a jerk, and you can't dismiss that.

 

LT's a likable jerk though, tiki's just a hollywood phony who thinks becuase he's smart for a football player that he can be a legit news anchor

[feefifoefum]

I make a post predicting the Giants battling it out for the basement.

 

Interestingly, many of the so-called experts are not exactly in love with the Giants right now. Now, I do not put much stock in the "experts." However, it goes to show that I am not alone in my opinion. :worshippy:

 

So I make my post, and the best that Giants fans come up with is shots at the Cowboys, and shots at me for being a so-called "troll." :blah: This is called avoiding the issue. Conversely, maybe you know what I say is true, and there is no counter-argument. This troll does not know.

 

And you wonder why I come on once a month and never respond...Do you homers ever post anything that justifies a response?

 

P.S. You people jumping on the Brandon Jacobs bandwagon cleary do not appreciate what Tiki Barber meant to your franchise. He carried that overrated QB and mediocre offensive line by slipping and cutting through non-existant holes. I can't wait to see Brandon Jacobs try and run on Dallas behind that same sive... :evilgrin: And I can't wait to watch Eli try to pass with no running game to speak of...

 

I agree that the Giants MIGHT be battling for the basement....

 

with the Cowboys.

[Money]

1. No ring

2. No ring

3. Took him 7 years to get to the plateau.

 

He could be a hall of famer, he sure as hell ain't no

first ballot. If he is, that's an injustice to Art Monk and

Thurman Thomas.

 

How many rings does Thurman Thomas have?

 

I really don't see how you could hold the timing of a player's prime against them...

[RandolphScott]

How many rings does Thurman Thomas have?

 

I really don't see how you could hold the timing of a player's prime against them...

 

 

As I said before, I don't think Tiki Barber is a first ballot

hall of famer, as fishgut said before he did have some great

years but his contemporaries had better years. He could get

in down the road, but I highly doubt he will be a first ballot

hall of famer.

[NeMesiS]

How many rings does Thurman Thomas have?

 

I really don't see how you could hold the timing of a player's prime against them...

I think what Golf is saying, is that WE all know Tiki is a Hall-of-Famer...But the reporters who have the priviledge to cast a vote, may not think as we do...Case in point: Harry Carson. Everyone knows he should of been a first ballot hall of famer. But that wasn't the case...

 

The only thing is see helping Tiki get inot the HOF, is that he is an offensive player. Normally they tend to an easier time getting voted in than defensive player do.

[Money]

I think you guys are missing the key points on the Tiki debate.

 

His presence in the media will help him, but it won't make or break his candidacy. What will help him is that he compares very favorably to his contemporaries (Faulk, Martin, Bettis) in terms of total yards, and he retired in his prime, meaning that his numbers could look better if he stuck around to accumulate like Bettis, for example. And before one of you smart-alecs say "HOF should be about what you did, not what you could have done," understand that I'm talking about the mentality of the voters, not the integrity of the institution.

 

What hurts him is the lack of Pro Bowls (3), and comparatively low TD totals. Those are the two biggest obstacles blocking his induction. People keep bringing up fumbles, but I doubt that hurts his candicacy much, if at all. It wouldn't be surprising if his ability to overcome the fumbling problem is ultimately viewed as a positive when evaluating his merits.

 

Will he get in? I think he does eventually. He accomplished a lot in his career, he completely revamped his playing style to improve, and he will be a presence in the media, which obviously helps since the voting panel is comprised of sportswriters.

[NeMesiS]

I think you guys are missing the key points on the Tiki debate.

 

His presence in the media will help him, but it won't make or break his candidacy. What will help him is that he compares very favorably to his contemporaries (Faulk, Martin, Bettis) in terms of total yards, and he retired in his prime, meaning that his numbers could look better if he stuck around to accumulate like Bettis, for example. And before one of you smart-alecs say "HOF should be about what you did, not what you could have done," understand that I'm talking about the mentality of the voters, not the integrity of the institution.

 

What hurts him is the lack of Pro Bowls (3), and comparatively low TD totals. Those are the two biggest obstacles blocking his induction. People keep bringing up fumbles, but I doubt that hurts his candicacy much, if at all. It wouldn't be surprising if his ability to overcome the fumbling problem is ultimately viewed as a positive when evaluating his merits.

 

Will he get in? I think he does eventually. He accomplished a lot in his career, he completely revamped his playing style to improve, and he will be a presence in the media, which obviously helps since the voting panel is comprised of sportswriters.

 

I agree...good post money.

[BIGBLUE01]

I think you guys are missing the key points on the Tiki debate.

 

His presence in the media will help him, but it won't make or break his candidacy. What will help him is that he compares very favorably to his contemporaries (Faulk, Martin, Bettis) in terms of total yards, and he retired in his prime, meaning that his numbers could look better if he stuck around to accumulate like Bettis, for example. And before one of you smart-alecs say "HOF should be about what you did, not what you could have done," understand that I'm talking about the mentality of the voters, not the integrity of the institution.

 

What hurts him is the lack of Pro Bowls (3), and comparatively low TD totals. Those are the two biggest obstacles blocking his induction. People keep bringing up fumbles, but I doubt that hurts his candicacy much, if at all. It wouldn't be surprising if his ability to overcome the fumbling problem is ultimately viewed as a positive when evaluating his merits.

 

Will he get in? I think he does eventually. He accomplished a lot in his career, he completely revamped his playing style to improve, and he will be a presence in the media, which obviously helps since the voting panel is comprised of sportswriters.

 

Agreed, very well said. :worshippy:

[Gspotter]

Tiki will (likely) eventually get in and my rationale for that argument is because few individuals have meant more to a team.

 

The nature of the voting isn't a science, so his TD's, etc., won't be the barrier. Shaking off his early struggles and inital incarnation may be a challenge though.

 

He's got some people ahead of him, but not all of those peers are going to be eligable at the same time, so I think he's got a chance.

 

If Harry Carson got in at a career that spanned Singltary, Lamberts, and more, I think Tiki's got a good shot in a third or fourth ballet. The poster who commented on his status helping him couldn't be more correct.

[fishgutmartyr]

I think you guys are missing the key points on the Tiki debate.

 

His presence in the media will help him, but it won't make or break his candidacy. What will help him is that he compares very favorably to his contemporaries (Faulk, Martin, Bettis) in terms of total yards, and he retired in his prime, meaning that his numbers could look better if he stuck around to accumulate like Bettis, for example. And before one of you smart-alecs say "HOF should be about what you did, not what you could have done," understand that I'm talking about the mentality of the voters, not the integrity of the institution.

 

He compares favorably to Faulk? Tiki lead the league in total yards from scrimmage 2 seasons, and was in the top 5 on two other occasions (4th and 5th). Faulk also lead the league 2 seasons, and was in the top 5 another 3 seasons, two of which he was in second place. Link to Faulk stats.

Same site for Tiki.

 

Faulk is also 4th on the all time list for total yards, while Tiki is 10th. Besides where you say Tiki compares favorably, Faulk also has Seven Pro Bowls to Three. Lead the league in rushing tds in 2001. Rushing/receiving tds in 2000 and 2001.

 

No, I don't think he compares favorably to Faulk at all. Even in total yards.

 

Martin and Bettis are different stories. Tiki does compare favorably to those two, and frankly I would have taken Tiki over those two even in straight rushing at his peak.

 

But Bettis has the ProBowls and pesky ring thing. And he's from Detroit, where he got the superbowl ring.

 

Martin is my argument as to why a 1,000 yard rushing season isn't the measure of a great running back anymore, just a good one. But the fact of the matter is that he's tied for 4th all-time for rushing yards, and his undeniable consistency is probably getting him in.

 

What hurts him is the lack of Pro Bowls (3), and comparatively low TD totals. Those are the two biggest obstacles blocking his induction. People keep bringing up fumbles, but I doubt that hurts his candicacy much, if at all. It wouldn't be surprising if his ability to overcome the fumbling problem is ultimately viewed as a positive when evaluating his merits.

 

I don't know Money, even when he was two years removed from his fumbling issues, he was still hearing about it from the media. I think that reputation has stuck with him, fair or not. And that is going to play a factor in voting, especially since it coincides so much with his less than spectacular early career stats.

[Nas]

Whether or not Tiki "worked hard", fact is he was getting paid a lot of money to do so by the Giants. He should work hard!

 

Secondly everyone here is entitled to their opinion and they are allowed to put things in perspective, fact is that Tiki did improve and in the last few years was for the most part our offense. However before Coughlin came in (and God knows I don't praise Coughlin for much), Tiki was been ridiculed around the league for fumbling and there were even rumors that Coughlin would get rid of Tiki because he wouldn't tolerate it. Instead Coughlin helped change his style and suddenly there are no fumbles and there is 2 pro bowls.

 

Truth is nobody benefitted more these last few years than Tiki. On this team his star shone more than ever. Then simply put, it went to his head. You see All Star, you talk about working hard, which is fine, he may have, but then there' working smart, and Coughlin helped Tiki change that. Before Coughlin (BC), Tiki would not be getting a gig on the Today Show, but with his success, he absolutely gets the gig.

 

Instead of taking the high road, Tiki basically trashed the org, and that wasn't right. There's no way to spin it, he trashed Coughlin at a time when he simply had no reason to. It was done with little class and there's no way to defend him on this. whatever you think of Coughlin, no matter how Coughlin reacts to things (Hitler!!), he doesnt' deserve that. If you had an employee and he knew nothing and you mentored him so that he was able to move to another position and after he got there, he told everyone you sucked, you'd be very pissed off. And that's how a lot of Giants fans feel now about Tiki.

 

Very well said.

[boohyah]

Very well said.

 

 

Crazy thing is, that even though I kinda bashed Tiki, guess who shook hands with him on 74th and Broadway last Saturday and had a couple of words with him, 2 of those words being "thanks Man".

[Money]

He compares favorably to Faulk? Tiki lead the league in total yards from scrimmage 2 seasons, and was in the top 5 on two other occasions (4th and 5th). Faulk also lead the league 2 seasons, and was in the top 5 another 3 seasons, two of which he was in second place. Link to Faulk stats.

Same site for Tiki.

 

Faulk is also 4th on the all time list for total yards, while Tiki is 10th. Besides where you say Tiki compares favorably, Faulk also has Seven Pro Bowls to Three. Lead the league in rushing tds in 2001. Rushing/receiving tds in 2000 and 2001.

 

No, I don't think he compares favorably to Faulk at all. Even in total yards.

 

In terms of total yards (my initial contention), Tiki does compare favorably to Faulk. Tiki finished with 15,632 total yards, while Faulk accumulated 19,154. Big difference, sure; however, Faulk played in 22 more games in his career and spent some of his prime years playing in one of the best offenses in the history of the league. Tiki didn't have that luxury, and he had a higher yards per carry than Faulk. Also, keep in mind that Faulk had 800 more career touches (about 600 more carries) than Tiki.

 

In any case, how many guys with 15,000+ career total yards have been excluded from the HOF? Not many. The only one I can think of is Thurman Thomas, but I think he'll get in within the next couple years.

 

Martin and Bettis are different stories. Tiki does compare favorably to those two, and frankly I would have taken Tiki over those two even in straight rushing at his peak.

 

But Bettis has the ProBowls and pesky ring thing. And he's from Detroit, where he got the superbowl ring.

 

Martin is my argument as to why a 1,000 yard rushing season isn't the measure of a great running back anymore, just a good one. But the fact of the matter is that he's tied for 4th all-time for rushing yards, and his undeniable consistency is probably getting him in.

I don't know Money, even when he was two years removed from his fumbling issues, he was still hearing about it from the media. I think that reputation has stuck with him, fair or not. And that is going to play a factor in voting, especially since it coincides so much with his less than spectacular early career stats.

 

I recall tons of stories commending Tiki's renaissance in the ball security department. The only real criticism/joking I remember came from Chris Russo...

[fishgutmartyr]

In terms of total yards (my initial contention), Tiki does compare favorably to Faulk. Tiki finished with 15,632 total yards, while Faulk accumulated 19,154. Big difference, sure; however, Faulk played in 22 more games in his career and spent some of his prime years playing in one of the best offenses in the history of the league. Tiki didn't have that luxury, and he had a higher yards per carry than Faulk. Also, keep in mind that Faulk had 800 more career touches (about 600 more carries) than Tiki.

 

In any case, how many guys with 15,000+ career total yards have been excluded from the HOF? Not many. The only one I can think of is Thurman Thomas, but I think he'll get in within the next couple years.

 

I wouldn't be extremely confident that Tiki would have gotten the 3,522 yards in those missing 22 games to catch up to Marshall--we're talking about averaging about 160 total yards/game. In all fairness to Tiki, we can't say that he couldn't do it, either. But remember, he was complaining about how much of a toll the carries he was averaging was taking on him last season, so there is reason to think he might have begun dropping off this coming season; and he would have needed a few more games after this coming season to get to 22.

 

Then we get into the debate of "was Faulk great because of the offense, or was the offense great in part because of Faulk?" That's way too subjective to discuss reasonably.

 

You're jumping the gun on me a bit, Money. I'm not saying Tiki's numbers aren't worthy of HOF, just that he's not the shoo-in that people like to think.

[Money]

I wouldn't be extremely confident that Tiki would have gotten the 3,522 yards in those missing 22 games to catch up to Marshall--we're talking about averaging about 160 total yards/game. In all fairness to Tiki, we can't say that he couldn't do it, either. But remember, he was complaining about how much of a toll the carries he was averaging was taking on him last season, so there is reason to think he might have begun dropping off this coming season; and he would have needed a few more games after this coming season to get to 22.

 

Then we get into the debate of "was Faulk great because of the offense, or was the offense great in part because of Faulk?" That's way too subjective to discuss reasonably.

 

You're jumping the gun on me a bit, Money. I'm not saying Tiki's numbers aren't worthy of HOF, just that he's not the shoo-in that people like to think.

 

I doubt that Tiki would have reached Faulk's level of production if they had played in the same number of games, but it's close enough to say that they are similar. Faulk was a great player independent of STL's offense, but it certainly inflated his statistics a bit, as evidenced by the difference between his #'s in Indy and his #'s in STL. There's no bulletproof method for fairly quanitfying the "system" variable, but it's a reasonable consideration. What separates Faulk from Tiki is the TDs (136 to 67) and Pro Bowls (7 to 3).

 

You're right that he's not a lock for induction, and he won't get in before Faulk or Thomas.

[Gspotter]

Tiki was used differently than Faulk and in STL, Marshall was as much a recieving threat as one for running.

 

I don't intend to break down al lthe numbers, but I'd like to see a comparison of his receptions, yards from receptions, and TD"s on those receptions compared to Tiki's and that may narrow the gap.

 

The comparison of Faulk to Tiki is valid and the edge will always go to Faulk. Of course, I think they truly are closer than most people think, but it's the duration of Faulk's time as a premiere back and that championship that are defining, the ProBowls are interesting, but it's that damn championship.

[Treehugger]

I think you guys are missing the key points on the Tiki debate.

 

His presence in the media will help him, but it won't make or break his candidacy. What will help him is that he compares very favorably to his contemporaries (Faulk, Martin, Bettis) in terms of total yards, and he retired in his prime, meaning that his numbers could look better if he stuck around to accumulate like Bettis, for example. And before one of you smart-alecs say "HOF should be about what you did, not what you could have done," understand that I'm talking about the mentality of the voters, not the integrity of the institution.

 

What hurts him is the lack of Pro Bowls (3), and comparatively low TD totals. Those are the two biggest obstacles blocking his induction. People keep bringing up fumbles, but I doubt that hurts his candicacy much, if at all. It wouldn't be surprising if his ability to overcome the fumbling problem is ultimately viewed as a positive when evaluating his merits.

 

Will he get in? I think he does eventually. He accomplished a lot in his career, he completely revamped his playing style to improve, and he will be a presence in the media, which obviously helps since the voting panel is comprised of sportswriters.

Did you just use the word "integrity" in discussion of the NFL?

[Nas]

I wouldn't be extremely confident that Tiki would have gotten the 3,522 yards in those missing 22 games to catch up to Marshall--we're talking about averaging about 160 total yards/game. In all fairness to Tiki, we can't say that he couldn't do it, either. But remember, he was complaining about how much of a toll the carries he was averaging was taking on him last season, so there is reason to think he might have begun dropping off this coming season; and he would have needed a few more games after this coming season to get to 22.

 

Then we get into the debate of "was Faulk great because of the offense, or was the offense great in part because of Faulk?" That's way too subjective to discuss reasonably.

 

You're jumping the gun on me a bit, Money. I'm not saying Tiki's numbers aren't worthy of HOF, just that he's not the shoo-in that people like to think.

 

Tiki was in his prime, Fish. He easily had 2 more solid years left if not 3 or 4.

[fishgutmartyr]

Tiki was in his prime, Fish. He easily had 2 more solid years left if not 3 or 4.

You don't know that. Just as I don't know if he would have started to drop off. I'm not saying that it would have definitely happened--just that there was a good chance.

 

Remember, dropping off at this point would have included another 1,000 yard rushing/400 receiving season--but I wouldn't expect another 1,500/600 yard season from him.