Great Article by Mushnick Yesterday

[Iceman_NYG]

Nice Article, but if we were still in the playoffs or if we had won the division, nobody would be talking about the 'low-class' stuff. This team just played with no intelligence, thats all. And that seeped down from the coaching. It had nothing to do with class or no-class. This team was and still is frustrated with its inept coaches, especially the co-ordinators but noone said anything because he didnt want to be called a 'coach-killer'. We were performing poorly and stupidly in all aspects of football. This whole 'no-class' stuff is the least of our problems. Keep wining, play smart, nobody would bother about this shit.

[Iceman_NYG]

What the hell are some of people smoking here?

 

Did I actually read people saying, I dont really care if we have a 4-12 season as long as it is done with dignity??? Bull fucking shit. That is the most massive pile of horse dung I have ever heard. At 4-12, even if the players wear wearing 'Medals of Honour for exceptional behaviour' we would still be burning them at the stake for playing fucking poorly. As fans, fans want their team to win! If they are classy enroute to victory even better. But they just need to win. As long as the team wins, the fans dont make the players and their class to be of primary importance. Look at the Raiders, they won a lot while being complete assholes all the time, nobody said their fanbase diminished because the players didnt show class?? Infact, it exponentially increased.

Bottomline - Fans want their teams to win and win fairly, they dont bother too much if the players did the jerking off sign to opponents, as long as they backed it up and won!

[Nesta]

Did you take into account Budrock that many teams may not have needed TO, or didn't have the cap room to afford him when you said that. Why would for example, the Colts need TO?

 

It would be nice Bud, if after the players screwed up on the field, that the players walked to the sidelines and gave each other big hugs, but it doesn't work that way. Winning games would cancel out a lot of bad feelings towards the team. I mean a few years ago, Ray Lewis went from being a thug to Superbowl MVP and truth is a lot of the baggage that he carried went after that. I'm not saying that's the right thing, I'm saying that seems to be how things are.

 

The players in the NFL today come into the league generally with little class, but it's in high school and college that these guys should be learning how to behave. It's harder to teach guys to behave when they are 22-23 years of age and the contract is already signed.

 

This is my point, if the Giants were 4-12 because they were only good enough to be 4-12, I'd be fine with it. If you read any posts I've made before, it's clear I'm not bragging about an 8-8 season, but the reasons for this is not down to throwing arms in the air.

 

Yes I took that into account. Ofcourse the team with Marvin Harrison doesn't need TO. But I'd say at least 20 out of 32 teams don't have a WR of that quality and would love to have one. Considering his price tag goes down after every year of tantrums, I doubt that has as much to do with him being ignored on the market.

 

It would be nice if players realized their roles. We have a guy on payroll who's job is to get on Eli's ass about missing open receivers and making bad throws. His name is neither Shockey nor Burress. Shock and Burress are Eli's TEAMMATES. I don't know what you learned in football, but I picked up on the sportsmanship and values of a team.

 

Which one of us has been saying we were 8-8 because of the tantrums? I haven't noticed anyone saying that. The point being made is "We're sick of the classless tantrums." Not "we lossed because of them".

 

Ice: 4-12 with dignity and class, or 8-8 without it? What's the difference? Both teams are losers, but the 8-8 team are bigger losers, as they are classless. Was this team going to hold a place in your heart because they played below their talent, lucked their way into the playoffs, and lost again? Thank god we won those 4 more games. Please.

 

You guys seriously think no one would be talking about this if we'd won the superbowl? Boo you and I've already mentioned Ray Lewis, so that theory's out the window.

[Iceman_NYG]

Im not comparing a 4-12 team or an 8-8 team just purely based on records. Im just saying, if we were 4-12 and bottom of the division with entirely classy players, we would have way more fans upset calling for heads to roll as compared to 8-8 record with players doing some goofy things on the field. Im not satisfied one bit with what this team did this year, but atleast they gave us a reason to watch games until december instead of showing all class and packing it all in with a 4-12 season. These players were doing the same thing when we were 6-2 and top of the division. But no-one mentioned these low-classy things then, it was all fine as long as we got the victory. Point being, losing is a disease, and once a team keeps losing, all such non-factors are also blown up. Win, and everything will be forgotten.

[boohyah]

Yes I took that into account. Ofcourse the team with Marvin Harrison doesn't need TO. But I'd say at least 20 out of 32 teams don't have a WR of that quality and would love to have one. Considering his price tag goes down after every year of tantrums, I doubt that has as much to do with him being ignored on the market.

 

It would be nice if players realized their roles. We have a guy on payroll who's job is to get on Eli's ass about missing open receivers and making bad throws. His name is neither Shockey nor Burress. Shock and Burress are Eli's TEAMMATES. I don't know what you learned in football, but I picked up on the sportsmanship and values of a team.

 

Which one of us has been saying we were 8-8 because of the tantrums? I haven't noticed anyone saying that. The point being made is "We're sick of the classless tantrums." Not "we lossed because of them".

 

Ice: 4-12 with dignity and class, or 8-8 without it? What's the difference? Both teams are losers, but the 8-8 team are bigger losers, as they are classless. Was this team going to hold a place in your heart because they played below their talent, lucked their way into the playoffs, and lost again? Thank god we won those 4 more games. Please.

 

You guys seriously think no one would be talking about this if we'd won the superbowl? Boo you and I've already mentioned Ray Lewis, so that theory's out the window.

 

The guy on the payroll who's job is to get on Eli's ass didn't do his job last year, and what's worse is he's now the offensive co-ordinator. Look Bud, you can watch this team with blinkers on and see what you want to see, but the fact is that Eli gets treated with kids gloves, only once last year did a coach get in Eli's face, pretty much the guy left the field and walked straight to the bench to get his cap.

 

I'm not saying that the team is 8-8 with the tantrums, I've said numerous times that the team is 8-8 because it has a shitload of other problems that are far more important than guys gesturing. I don't like it when guys show each other up, but the big picture IMO is that our team has to fix the problems so that we're not having the circus we had last year. Winning is contagious, when the team does well together, a lot of these issues become minor problems.

 

Also Bud, in today's professional sports, no-one likes playing for a losing team, so if you want to keep saying that you'd rather watch a team that was 4-12 but played with dignity, that's fine but it's idealistic in this day and age, but if you think going 4-12 is going to make players happy and an organiztion happy, I think you're off the mark.

[Nesta]

The guy on the payroll who's job is to get on Eli's ass didn't do his job last year, and what's worse is he's now the offensive co-ordinator. Look Bud, you can watch this team with blinkers on and see what you want to see, but the fact is that Eli gets treated with kids gloves, only once last year did a coach get in Eli's face, pretty much the guy left the field and walked straight to the bench to get his cap.

 

I'm not saying that the team is 8-8 with the tantrums, I've said numerous times that the team is 8-8 because it has a shitload of other problems that are far more important than guys gesturing. I don't like it when guys show each other up, but the big picture IMO is that our team has to fix the problems so that we're not having the circus we had last year. Winning is contagious, when the team does well together, a lot of these issues become minor problems.

 

Also Bud, in today's professional sports, no-one likes playing for a losing team, so if you want to keep saying that you'd rather watch a team that was 4-12 but played with dignity, that's fine but it's idealistic in this day and age, but if you think going 4-12 is going to make players happy and an organiztion happy, I think you're off the mark.

 

I agree the guy didn't do his job, but that doesn't mean it's now Shock and Burress' job to do.

 

If you don't like the tantrums then why defend them? Discipline was a SEVERE problem this year and last. If you don't have discipline you can't fix anything, because players are going to do what they want and not what you teach.

 

I was talking about this last year's team. You think they're proud of 8-8 cause they made the playoffs? We'd be better off with 4-12 and a top 10 pick.

[mickeef2]

You're a funny guy Mickeef. You're here bitching about the Giants antics on the field, but there you go with the insults. So much for respecting other people huh?

 

Look booyah- I don't want this to turn into a war of words. I respect you as a poster and I've never had a problem with you before. However, in regard to me calling your argument "goofy", which you took offense to, I need to make a couple of points. One, I don't see a whole lot of difference between that and saying to me "Maybe you should go watch ice skating" (don't remember the exact quote, but it was something along those lines). That's just as insulting or inflammatory or whatever you want to call it, but I didn't have a problem with it. Contrarily, I could say, "You're claiming that it's okay to insult someone, now you're complaining that I insulted you." Two, you say I'm a hypocrite because I called you a name yet I criticize ballplayers for doing the same to their teammates. You have to agree there's just a little bit of a difference here. Are we posters being paid to work together toward a common goal? No. We don't have to get along for the message board to succeed. The whole point of a message board is to debate, which is a lot different than playing on a team.

 

As for your question, I don't think there's a direct correlation between a guys ability to control his emotions and his performance at key moments. That's my feeling on it. I mean, what's the one thing that everybody claims about Eli is how calm he seems to be at all times, yet his performances are so up and down and often they are down in key situations. Case in point the Titans game you claimed was your last game, Eli forces up a pass that he had no business to, and it had nothing to do with emotions, it was a shitty throw.

 

Personally when I've played sports myself I've gotten into shouting matches with teamates, sometimes it gets you riled up that you concentrate better, sometimes it doesn't, you may have a hard times believing that, but it's happened me before. Playing handball one time, I'm losing to a guy I should be beating and I lost my head and reeled off 8 points and won the game, another time while playing a soccer championship in high school, our goalie got kicked in the ribs by an opponent and I lose it and pushed the guy and then picked up the ball, only to get called for a penalty because the ref hadn't blown the whistle, they socred and we lost by that goal. So sure in hindsight that was a bad move, but the other situation worked.

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. Personally, I don't think you can compare a pickup handball game to the emotion and stress of an NFL contest, but as I said, we differ. I will say that I can give you a ton more examples of level-headed players who have performed well in the clutch than I can of loose cannons who have done the same.

 

By the way, I'll write in my sig how I quit on the Giants this year after the Titans game if we can get past that already. In my defense, I did post before the very next game against the Cowboys that I acted foolishly and I would continue to atch the games. Regardless, if you want to call me a quitter or a fair-weather fan, that's your perogative.

 

Getting back to Eli. I would have absolutely no issue if Eli yelled at his teamates more often, because he doesn't make all the mistakes, and he needs to be more of a leader. I mean look at Peyton, does anyone on the Colts doubt he's the leader, remember a few years back when Reggie Wayne started yelling at him during a game and Peyton told him in no uncertain terms to shut to fuck up. Leaving no doubt who's in charge and he was dead right.

 

I absolutely agre on this point. Eli needs to step up and take charge in the huddle. He came into a tough situation, being thrown into the starting role as a rookie and having to tell other guys what to do, and I think it's snowballed. I really don't understand how he's made it this far because it seems so totally out of his nature to get in guys faces when they need it. However, a coach should've stepped in a long, long time ago and told Burress and Shockey, in no uncertain terms, to shut the fuck up.

 

 

 

As for TO, you clearly don't like TO because he's a jerk. Fair enough, but the point about him not doing it on the field, well don't let all the incidents cloud the fact he still does the job. He had a lot of drops this year, he also played with a damaged finger that he just had surgery on. This was his worst year, but overall the guy can play. And there's always going to be teams out there that think that he can play for them and he'll be no problem. It might be foolish on their part, but they think that. And no he wouldn't play on team boohyah, but that's because I have my own philosophy on who I'd like to have on my team. I've always loved the way the 86/90 Giants played, I still beleive that style of football wins today.

 

Again, I respectfully disagree. I don't think any coach worth his spit out there would be willing to put up with this guy, especially after seeing how badly he worked with a great coach like Parcells.

 

By the way, Troy Brown didn't throw up his hands, Brady gestured to him.

 

I think you missed my point here. My point was that a quarterback yelling at a receiver and motioning with his hands that a receiver should've cut off the route, or ran the wrong route, is instruction so that the mistake doesn't happen again. Eli's problem is execution, not knowledge of the playbook. A more valid example would be Brady throwing up his hands and yelling at Caldwell after his horrible drops. You didn't see Brady do that, and you wouldn't, because that's showing up your teammate. There's a big difference between failing to execute and failing to know the play.

[mickeef2]

Nice Article, but if we were still in the playoffs or if we had won the division, nobody would be talking about the 'low-class' stuff.

 

Not to toot my own horn here, but I've been saying this stuff about Shockey since his very first game as a Giant, and I've continued saying it throughout his entire career, as many here can attest, win or lose.

[boohyah]

Look booyah- I don't want this to turn into a war of words. I respect you as a poster and I've never had a problem with you before. However, in regard to me calling your argument "goofy", which you took offense to, I need to make a couple of points. One, I don't see a whole lot of difference between that and saying to me "Maybe you should go watch ice skating" (don't remember the exact quote, but it was something along those lines). That's just as insulting or inflammatory or whatever you want to call it, but I didn't have a problem with it. Contrarily, I could say, "You're claiming that it's okay to insult someone, now you're complaining that I insulted you." Two, you say I'm a hypocrite because I called you a name yet I criticize ballplayers for doing the same to their teammates. You have to agree there's just a little bit of a difference here. Are we posters being paid to work together toward a common goal? No. We don't have to get along for the message board to succeed. The whole point of a message board is to debate, which is a lot different than playing on a team.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. Personally, I don't think you can compare a pickup handball game to the emotion and stress of an NFL contest, but as I said, we differ. I will say that I can give you a ton more examples of level-headed players who have performed well in the clutch than I can of loose cannons who have done the same.

 

By the way, I'll write in my sig how I quit on the Giants this year after the Titans game if we can get past that already. In my defense, I did post before the very next game against the Cowboys that I acted foolishly and I would continue to atch the games. Regardless, if you want to call me a quitter or a fair-weather fan, that's your perogative.

I absolutely agre on this point. Eli needs to step up and take charge in the huddle. He came into a tough situation, being thrown into the starting role as a rookie and having to tell other guys what to do, and I think it's snowballed. I really don't understand how he's made it this far because it seems so totally out of his nature to get in guys faces when they need it. However, a coach should've stepped in a long, long time ago and told Burress and Shockey, in no uncertain terms, to shut the fuck up.

Again, I respectfully disagree. I don't think any coach worth his spit out there would be willing to put up with this guy, especially after seeing how badly he worked with a great coach like Parcells.

I think you missed my point here. My point was that a quarterback yelling at a receiver and motioning with his hands that a receiver should've cut off the route, or ran the wrong route, is instruction so that the mistake doesn't happen again. Eli's problem is execution, not knowledge of the playbook. A more valid example would be Brady throwing up his hands and yelling at Caldwell after his horrible drops. You didn't see Brady do that, and you wouldn't, because that's showing up your teammate. There's a big difference between failing to execute and failing to know the play.

 

 

Honestly, I was going to write something longer, but I have a bad fucking headcold and I don't have the patience, so let me say this

 

- My point all along was that I think the issue is overblown, I still do, we disagree, leave it at that.

 

-the first line on my response to you was to make a point, in no way was I being too sensitive. We're just going back and forth.

 

- It wasn't a pickup game, it was a regional title match, to me that was a big deal at 17, I figured using examples of my own experiences was the best way to answer.

 

- I won't mention the Titans game anymore, just don't write you're giving up on the team. You're not a fair weather fan.

 

- I don't like TO, but he's a good player, one bad season doesn't change that considering that considering he had an injury.

 

- Fuck the Patriots, who cares.............GO COLTS!!!