so im listening to mike francessa

[Herc]

and apparently the giants front office wanted hufnagel fired LAST offseason and coughlin fought to keep him. as far as i'm concerned that's called VOUCHING. reason # 746 why he must be fired

[Nesta]

Yes, another red mark on the list of reasons why TC must go.

As if there weren't enough already.

There was enough in last night's game as far as I'm concerned.

[Herc]

I gotta say, this actually makes me feel a little better about the kids who are running the show now. francessa was saying today how if wellington were still alive that there'd be NO WAY that coughlin would be fired because coughlin made the playoffs two seasons in a row. francessa is dead right, too. and i bet if welington were alive at teh end of last season he wouldn't have been wanting the offensive coordinator fired either after we went 11-5 and were among the league leaders in offense, but apparently the current front office looked at more than just the stats and saw that our offense was ridiculously predictable and relied more on sheer football talent than an effective offensive gameplan. hopefully this will also mean that they will look at more than just the fact that we made the playoffs

[Nesta]

hopefully this will also mean that they will look at more than just the fact that we made the playoffs

 

Like the fact we didn't so much make the playoffs as rely on other teams to NOT make the playoffs.

[xxi-xxv]

Much like the old man himself, Coughlin is a stubborn old mule. After a day of thought and digestion I think that there is no way he should not be fired. My reasoning is very simple. At this point no matter what happened the media will not allow him to succeed here. They utterly hate him and when that happens in NY you are doomed, just ask Ray Handley. There is no way the front office can bring him back now. When the media buries you and for better or worse decides your fate you are doomed in NY. They hated Bobby Valentine and the first chance they got they did it to him, Bobby Bonilla, Vince Coleman, Ed Whitson, Rich Kotite etc, the list is endless of sports figures whom the NY media hated and buried at the first chance they got, its a situation that no one can win. For the betterment of the team at this point its probably better to cut losses and move on. Not sure if there is a better candidate out there, but at least a new positive environment could change the culture and perception. This just cannot continue like this.

[njsmalls]

Much like the old man himself, Coughlin is a stubborn old mule. After a day of thought and digestion I think that there is no way he should not be fired. My reasoning is very simple. At this point no matter what happened the media will not allow him to succeed here. They utterly hate him and when that happens in NY you are doomed, just ask Ray Handley. There is no way the front office can bring him back now. When the media buries you and for better or worse decides your fate you are doomed in NY. They hated Bobby Valentine and the first chance they got they did it to him, Bobby Bonilla, Vince Coleman, Ed Whitson, Rich Kotite etc, the list is endless of sports figures whom the NY media hated and buried at the first chance they got, its a situation that no one can win. For the betterment of the team at this point its probably better to cut losses and move on. Not sure if there is a better candidate out there, but at least a new positive environment could change the culture and perception. This just cannot continue like this.

Like A-Rod?

 

I don't know why people hate him so much. He's handsome and bi-racial...

[Sephiroth]

The only way I see them keeping Coughlin is if they want to keep some stability with a new GM coming in.

 

 

If I were them, I'd clean house... new coach, new GM, new QB... and trade either Shockey or Plax (or both) to move up in the draft/aquire picks (I know I'm in the minority on this last one, but IMHO, attitude is as important as athletic ability... no reason we can't have both).

[randoff]

The only way I see them keeping Coughlin is if they want to keep some stability with a new GM coming in.

If I were them, I'd clean house... new coach, new GM, new QB... and trade either Shockey or Plax (or both) to move up in the draft/aquire picks (I know I'm in the minority on this last one, but IMHO, attitude is as important as athletic ability... no reason we can't have both).

You got my vote. Shockey's attitude and stats haven't been the same since 2002. Plax is just Plax...a T.O. Lite.

[RandolphScott]

Bobby Bonilla, Vince Coleman

 

Thanks XXI, thanks.

 

 

If I were them, I'd clean house... new coach, new GM, new QB... and trade either Shockey or Plax (or both) to move up in the draft/aquire picks (I know I'm in the minority on this last one, but IMHO, attitude is as important as athletic ability... no reason we can't have both).

 

Why don`t we blow up and start new?

[Nas]

You got my vote. Shockey's attitude and stats haven't been the same since 2002. Plax is just Plax...a T.O. Lite.

 

Shockey belongs on this team. Eli, himself, and Toomer are fixtures on our offense and we should never part with any of them. Emmons, Plax, and Whitfield... those you can line 'em up... scan your sector.

[Virginia Giant]

new QB... and trade either Shockey or Plax (or both) to move up in the draft/aquire picks (I know I'm in the minority on this last one, but IMHO, attitude is as important as athletic ability... no reason we can't have both).

OK, who do you want at QB? A veteramn? Whos available, and who would you really be willing to ttrade for. Joey harrington maybe? Garcia? Huard? These are QB's that have a shot at being traded. Any of those 3 you want over Eli?

 

Or do you want to draft someone? ets see, we'll be at around what, the 20-25 spot? maybe Troy Smith from OSU? that who you want? So we get him and for the next 3 or 4 years i get to hear from you guys how bad he is and how we should trade him.

 

You want the HC, and OC gone but you still blame Eli's short comings on Eli? how about we let him try his hand under some effective offensive coaches that know the value of a running game before we jump ship.

 

You got my vote. Shockey's attitude and stats haven't been the same since 2002. Plax is just Plax...a T.O. Lite.

 

 

Did you watch the game yesterday? You see that guy get his helmet ripped off and still lower his shoulders for a couple extra yards? You see that guy on the sideleines supporting Eli after the INT? See the guy go up to coughlin and remove his head phhones to tell him the punted ball was down and not fumbled by RW? See that guy playing hurt and nearly taking the game over?

 

That was all Shockey. Yeop, Shockey. he may run his mouth, but in the playoffs he was doing everything imaginable to win, he didn't give up, didn't complain. that was old Shockey. Tell me what TE we can get that is better? He was at or near the top in all offensive catagories for TE's. Unless we can bring in gates, I think we'll stick to shockey.

 

 

Now Plax, all the talent in the world, and i've tried looking past his flaws, but when he threw his hands up and hung his head in disgust after Eli didn't see him open, that duid it for me. I wouldn't mind at all trading him, only problem there is he is really the only reciever we have. Toomer is a possession WR now and Moss is unproven.

[Plow]

I agree complete with VG.

 

Eli is here to stay, and like it or not he's won games for us and he's a better than average QB with a big upside. As soon as he gets his INT numbers down he will be a Pro Bowler. We cant get rid of him, and he's going to be here for at least a few more years.

 

Shockey is here to stay. I cant see him going. He wants to win. He's limping all over the field playing with his helmet off. Thats a ton of desire and heart, more than I can say about a few guys on this team.

 

Plax could go and I wouldn't mind. I was impressed a bit with what he did in the playoffs. But his attitude stinks. Like somebody said, he's a shade below TO. I wouldn't signing a WR or using our 1st rounder on one.

[boohyah]

Plax has a poor attitude, but you know what, he gets a pass from me on that play. Sure you could file it under undiscliplined and showing the QB up, but Eli made a complete hash of that play. The camera angle from behind him showed he had tons of room to run for the first down, let alone step up in the pocket and throw it. And amazingly Eli ends up getting chased out of the pocket and throws an awful pass on the run to Moss. I'd throw up my hands and you could even see Coughlin mouthing the words "throw the ball'. It's got to be frustrating for wide receivers when they get opn in the red zone, which is hard enough to do as it is, and have the QB completely look them off.

 

The only way the Giants get rid of Plaxico is if he wants out and makes a big stink about it, otherwise he stays. And frankly I have no problem with that, when he puts in the effort, he's a good wideout and furthermore, there have been times when Eli has overthrown his passes and Plax has had to make a play on the ball to catch it. If you think Eli's QB rating is low, it would be a lot worse without Burress.

 

You could have Eli throwing passes to TO, you think Plax is bad, imagine that nightmare scenario.

[randoff]

I agree complete with VG.

 

Eli is here to stay, and like it or not he's won games for us and he's a better than average QB with a big upside. Shockey is here to stay. I cant see him going. He wants to win. He's limping all over the field playing with his helmet off. Thats a ton of desire and heart, more than I can say about a few guys on this team.

It took 6-7 weeks for Shockey to show 'desire' and 'heart'. What happened in the New Orleans game, Mr. Shockey?? Granted, I can admit Shockey did play (in this ONE game) like he did in 2002 BUT...but, why wait till the Eagle game to do it? Shockey, we needed you in the Cowboy game, we needed you in the Saints game and we could have used you in the last loss to the Eagles.

 

I wouldn't trade Eli, I was kidding when I said trade Shockey and Eli for Vick and some draft picks. But there are numerous holes in this team; starting with O line depth, RB, possesion recievers, OLB, safety, quality corners, special team play...

[Herc]

i dont like plax anymore than most of you guys, i hate his attitude and that quote he had "see you in training camp" about training in miami again made me sick as well. but what have to retain him if we dont add anymore WRs in the offseason. we dont know if toomer will be the same when he returns, what we DO know is that he will be a year older. we all see how much eli struggled as soon as toomer was gone, can you imagine how much he'd have struggled if plax wasn't there either? i mean you all do know that plax had both TDs in the eagles game right? he's way too valuable to get rid of. if we can replace him then i'm all for getting rid of him. but plax is a big help for a young qb, he was roethlisberger's favorite target before he signed here and he's been a big factor in eli's development so far (despite complaints to the contrary eli IS improving). i'd love to somehow trade up and take calvin johnson, he's goign to hit the scene ala randy moss, but that's a pipe dream.

 

as for shockey, i just can't see how people hate this guy. he wnats to win. the guy had his helmet knocked off and ducked into 3 eagles to get a first down. he's out there limping around every season playing hurt and playing with passion. i'll never understand people's hatred for this guy

[boohyah]

i dont like plax anymore than most of you guys, i hate his attitude and that quote he had "see you in training camp" about training in miami again made me sick as well. but what have to retain him if we dont add anymore WRs in the offseason. we dont know if toomer will be the same when he returns, what we DO know is that he will be a year older. we all see how much eli struggled as soon as toomer was gone, can you imagine how much he'd have struggled if plax wasn't there either? i mean you all do know that plax had both TDs in the eagles game right? he's way too valuable to get rid of. if we can replace him then i'm all for getting rid of him. but plax is a big help for a young qb, he was roethlisberger's favorite target before he signed here and he's been a big factor in eli's development so far (despite complaints to the contrary eli IS improving). i'd love to somehow trade up and take calvin johnson, he's goign to hit the scene ala randy moss, but that's a pipe dream.

 

as for shockey, i just can't see how people hate this guy. he wnats to win. the guy had his helmet knocked off and ducked into 3 eagles to get a first down. he's out there limping around every season playing hurt and playing with passion. i'll never understand people's hatred for this guy

 

 

The 2 biggest reasons it seems people on here hate Shockey:

 

1) Other teams fans hate the guy.

 

2) He talks up and speaks his mind and throws his hands in the air when Eli looks himoff for no reason.

 

 

And those are not really good enough reasons when you think about it. The guy plays hard and plays hurt, but he gestures and yells, and he really shouldn't do that.

[boohyah]

i dont like plax anymore than most of you guys, i hate his attitude and that quote he had "see you in training camp" about training in miami again made me sick as well. but what have to retain him if we dont add anymore WRs in the offseason. we dont know if toomer will be the same when he returns, what we DO know is that he will be a year older. we all see how much eli struggled as soon as toomer was gone, can you imagine how much he'd have struggled if plax wasn't there either? i mean you all do know that plax had both TDs in the eagles game right? he's way too valuable to get rid of. if we can replace him then i'm all for getting rid of him. but plax is a big help for a young qb, he was roethlisberger's favorite target before he signed here and he's been a big factor in eli's development so far (despite complaints to the contrary eli IS improving). i'd love to somehow trade up and take calvin johnson, he's goign to hit the scene ala randy moss, but that's a pipe dream.

 

as for shockey, i just can't see how people hate this guy. he wnats to win. the guy had his helmet knocked off and ducked into 3 eagles to get a first down. he's out there limping around every season playing hurt and playing with passion. i'll never understand people's hatred for this guy

 

 

Some people have sucky attitudes, and Plax is one. He doesn't go full out on some plays. He should come to voluntary mini camp but he doesn't but he is prac tising. But the guy has talent and makes plays, and he's made Eli look good on several occasions. You just can't dump him.

[Herc]

right, if we have a decent replacement then fine. but it hurts the team to get rid of him without adding a #1 receiver

[Sephiroth]

I'll tell you my problems with Shockey:

 

1. Yeah, he plays with heart and wants to win, and he shows up for a big play or two a lot of times... and he shows up for a big drop or two just as many times. Yeah, I remember him catching a 20-yarder vs. Denver last year to get us to the two yard line. I remember him absolutely plowing over the Colts safety a few years back. I also remember him dropping what would have been the game-sealing TD vs. the 49ers in the playoffs, dropping a TD from Collins the next year vs. the Falcolns (and visibly laughing about it), and dropping that fourth down pass two games ago. No consistency.

 

2. THEN he has the audacity to get on Eli's ass when he doesn't see him or overthrows him (which is often, I'll admit). If he has something to say, that's fine... I have plenty to say about Eli too. But say it on the sidelines... don't wave your hands and act like you're three years old on the field.

 

3. He's injury prone. Name the year Shockey went from camp to January without getting hurt. Sure, he'll play through pain, but he's ALWAYS playing through pain. I don't know if the guy has a lot left for his career, with two bum ankles, bum knees, etc. which is why I say get something for him while you can.

 

4. He gives the opposing team "bulletin board" material for at least three games per year. If you want your opponent fired up, stick a microphone in front of Shockey.

 

 

So those are my problems. If you're a "glass is half full" kind of guy, I'm sure you love him and think he's great. I think he epitomizes what's wrong with this team... no consistency, all talk, hurt a lot. So pick your poison.

[RandolphScott]

I also remember him dropping what would have been the game-sealing TD vs. the 49ers in the playoffs

 

People like to harp on him for this, the game should have never gone to that point, stop using it as leverage.

[Herc]

1. Yeah, he plays with heart and wants to win, and he shows up for a big play or two a lot of times... and he shows up for a big drop or two just as many times. Yeah, I remember him catching a 20-yarder vs. Denver last year to get us to the two yard line. I remember him absolutely plowing over the Colts safety a few years back. I also remember him dropping what would have been the game-sealing TD vs. the 49ers in the playoffs, dropping a TD from Collins the next year vs. the Falcolns (and visibly laughing about it), and dropping that fourth down pass two games ago. No consistency.

 

the only thing consistent about shockey is that he's consistently one of the top 5 TE's in football. the drops are very much overblown, he's never at the top of the league in passes dropped. for example this season he had 5, owens had 17, and shockey wans't even in the top 20. i'll take a few drops here and there with production like shockey's, just like i'll take a few homeruns here and there from johan santana.

 

2. THEN he has the audacity to get on Eli's ass when he doesn't see him or overthrows him (which is often, I'll admit). If he has something to say, that's fine... I have plenty to say about Eli too. But say it on the sidelines... don't wave your hands and act like you're three years old on the field.

 

from someone who hates eli so much im surprised you take offense to this. there's a difference between shockey and plax getting on eli, plax does it cuz he wants the ball, shockey does it because he wants the play to be made.

 

 

3. He's injury prone. Name the year Shockey went from camp to January without getting hurt. Sure, he'll play through pain, but he's ALWAYS playing through pain. I don't know if the guy has a lot left for his career, with two bum ankles, bum knees, etc. which is why I say get something for him while you can.

 

todd heap is always hurt too and he was the best TE in football this season. shockey might get hurt a lot, but at least he plays through it.

 

4. He gives the opposing team "bulletin board" material for at least three games per year. If you want your opponent fired up, stick a microphone in front of Shockey.

So those are my problems. If you're a "glass is half full" kind of guy, I'm sure you love him and think he's great. I think he epitomizes what's wrong with this team... no consistency, all talk, hurt a lot. So pick your poison.

 

i wont disagree with this, he still hasn't learned that he has to fight the urge to say what's on his mind. while it's counterproductive it does show me he cares a LOT about winning and genuinly feels confident about his team and it's chances of winning. again i'll take the bad with the good here.

[boohyah]

People like to harp on him for this, the game should have never gone to that point, stop using it as leverage.

 

As much as that game hurt to watch, the fact that the 49ers played well to get back into the game, coupled with the fact that our defense "imploded" and we had guys like Shaun Williams and Omar Stoutmire acting like bums, contributed more to that loss than Shockey's dropped TD.

[Herc]

and without shockey's TD catch against the eagles we dont even get to play that 49ers game

[boohyah]

the only thing consistent about shockey is that he's consistently one of the top 5 TE's in football. the drops are very much overblown, he's never at the top of the league in passes dropped. for example this season he had 5, owens had 17, and shockey wans't even in the top 20. i'll take a few drops here and there with production like shockey's, just like i'll take a few homeruns here and there from johan santana.

from someone who hates eli so much im surprised you take offense to this. there's a difference between shockey and plax getting on eli, plax does it cuz he wants the ball, shockey does it because he wants the play to be made.

todd heap is always hurt too and he was the best TE in football this season. shockey might get hurt a lot, but at least he plays through it.

i wont disagree with this, he still hasn't learned that he has to fight the urge to say what's on his mind. while it's counterproductive it does show me he cares a LOT about winning and genuinly feels confident about his team and it's chances of winning. again i'll take the bad with the good here.

 

 

I'm still trying to figure out what he says that's counterproductive. When he said we were outcoached, HE WAS RIGHT!. Nothing Shockey has said has ever lead to us losing a game. And if this team focused on winning the game and had half of his enthusiasm for the game, he wouldnt' be spouting off. Hanlon said that Shockey was not a problem for the Giants and I think they truly feel that way.

 

You know it's funny, if you think about it, this year with all the negative stuff going on about the team, I think it's fair to say that Shockey came out of it all looking the best of anybody.

[Sephiroth]

As much as that game hurt to watch, the fact that the 49ers played well to get back into the game, coupled with the fact that our defense "imploded" and we had guys like Shaun Williams and Omar Stoutmire acting like bums, contributed more to that loss than Shockey's dropped TD.

 

 

Definitely. I can also remember him taking a less-than-direct route to the endzone to prove something to Julian Peterson in that game... turns out he proved that he can't run over Peterson, and we settled for a FG.

 

My point is this: If I were GM, I'd like to put together a team with a work ethic along the lines of a New England Patriots. Find me the Jeremy Shockey on the New England Patriots.

 

He'll do some tremendously great things, and some monumentally stupid ones. I'd rather have a blue-collar guy who's consistenly rates a 6 or 7 then a guy who's a 10 on two plays, a 2 on the next, and a 2 throughout the week when he says something dumb.

 

He's just not the kind of guy that I'd want on my team... but like I said, I know I'm in the minority.