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i've said it before and i'll say it again


Herc

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In terms of bringing in players, let's see what the Giants have done since Coughlin became coach.

 

- gave up the ship to get Eli.

 

- Plaxico Burress

 

- kareem McKenzie

 

-Sam madison

 

- Will Demps

 

- Lavar Arrington

 

- Jay Feely ( when was the last time we splashed out on a kicker)

 

- Carlos emmons

 

- Barrett Green (yep, this guy got paid)

Just in that list, is a bunch of players that ernie would never have bothered to bring in during Fassels days, and when he did it was guys like fucking Brian Mitchell ( a game changer!!!). Ernie admitted in the last few years that the Giants had to go the free agency route more than they used to. And if you remember down in Jacksonville the amount of money Coughlin spent on players....... well there's a common denominator there for you.

 

There is a combo of reasons that it appears that we have brought in more players, none more evident that under Fassel we re-signed many of our own free agents or potential free agents to huge deals. Tiki , Sehorn, Strahan, Toomer, Pettigout, Hilliard, Armstead(then cut 3 years later), Hamilton, Williams all recieved big pay day contracts while Fassel was the coach.

 

Some noteable free agents

 

Glenn Parker, Lomas Brown, Dusty Zeigler, Pete Mitchell, Mike Barrow, Kenny Holmes, Brian Mitchell were some of the noteable free agents signed during the Fassel era. Some were good, some were so so.

 

I think the idea of the Giants now signing more free agents stems from two thoughts, one being the cap is higher than it has been in the past and the Giants have had money and #2 and more importantly the Giants have not been forced to address their own players they have developed over the past few years as free agents. What the Giants now do better is locking up their young players before they get to that last year, something we saw Sehorn, Strahan, Tiki and Armstead all do as players under Fassel

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Fassel may be the most influential coach in Giants history. He is the first coach to actually make the NY offense work. Before him, our offenses were serviceable at best. And his legacy continues. Too bad he just about disregarded the other 2 aspects of the game in the process.

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i disagree. you can't say he's a lousy gameday coach, b/c he has proven otherwise. he took a near expansion team to the afc championship game and got them there twice. he has turned around this franchise that was left in complete dissaray when fassel left. he may not be a people person, but you have to respect him because of what he is able to do on the field. he also took this team, that could have easily folded in this season, and completely turned that around. eli may not be a pro bowler at this point, but coughlin has done a very good job bringing him along. he is a great offensive mind, and i hope he stays here. is he perfect? by no means but we could certainly be a lot worse off, so be careful what you wish for..

 

What you're talking about is what I consider the logistical aspect of coaching: getting and developing players, prepping them for the season and even getting them ready for games.

 

From that standpoint, ass or not, I don't think there are many coaches that are better. I mean, 3 years ago, most people thought of Barber as a very good running back that was fatally flawed. Now people are debating whether or not he makes the HOF. (Imagine if Barber gets that hold adjustment in 2001... :doh: ) Strahan gets IR'd in 2004, and comes back leaner and meaner than before he left. Even, Toomer, who I thought was done at the end of 2004, has transformed himself to the point where he owns the sideline as well as I remember Drew Pearson doing in the 70's. That's not all on Coughlin, of course, but where was all that under Fassel?

 

What I mean by gameday coach is the actual playcalling/adjustments to circumstances on a given Sunday. If his gameplan isn't working, he and his staff seem incapable of making changes during the course of the game. If that happens, it seems like the players need to make the adjustments by themselves in order to win. If they don't, we lose; and rather than just admit being caught off-guard, Coughlin blames "execution."

 

I think that's the major flaw with this coaching staff. Coughlin really doesn't have the compliment to his strength, which would be good play-calling coordinators.

 

In terms of bringing in players, let's see what the Giants have done since Coughlin became coach.

 

- gave up the ship to get Eli.

 

- Plaxico Burress

 

- kareem McKenzie

 

-Sam madison

 

- Will Demps

 

- Lavar Arrington

 

- Jay Feely ( when was the last time we splashed out on a kicker)

 

- Carlos emmons

 

- Barrett Green (yep, this guy got paid)

Just in that list, is a bunch of players that ernie would never have bothered to bring in during Fassels days, and when he did it was guys like fucking Brian Mitchell ( a game changer!!!). Ernie admitted in the last few years that the Giants had to go the free agency route more than they used to. And if you remember down in Jacksonville the amount of money Coughlin spent on players....... well there's a common denominator there for you.

 

You also forgot that guard that got IR'd before he ever played a regular season game for us.

 

:mellow:

I'm not understanding your argument. Is this a bad thing?

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In terms of bringing in players, let's see what the Giants have done since Coughlin became coach.

 

- gave up the ship to get Eli.

 

- Plaxico Burress

 

- kareem McKenzie

 

-Sam madison

 

- Will Demps

 

- Lavar Arrington

 

- Jay Feely ( when was the last time we splashed out on a kicker)

 

- Carlos emmons

 

- Barrett Green (yep, this guy got paid)

Just in that list, is a bunch of players that ernie would never have bothered to bring in during Fassels days, and when he did it was guys like fucking Brian Mitchell ( a game changer!!!). Ernie admitted in the last few years that the Giants had to go the free agency route more than they used to. And if you remember down in Jacksonville the amount of money Coughlin spent on players....... well there's a common denominator there for you.

 

 

 

Thats how it works. You put the best team together that you can, and you make a run. Besides, we must have just save a truck load of money by LA going down, and most of our players are signed long term. We have a shot to make a good long run,(damn you Tiki :furious: ) and thats all you can ask for.

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In terms of bringing in players, let's see what the Giants have done since Coughlin became coach.

 

- gave up the ship to get Eli.

 

- Plaxico Burress

 

- kareem McKenzie

 

-Sam madison

 

- Will Demps

 

- Lavar Arrington

 

- Jay Feely ( when was the last time we splashed out on a kicker)

 

- Carlos emmons

 

- Barrett Green (yep, this guy got paid)

Just in that list, is a bunch of players that ernie would never have bothered to bring in during Fassels days, and when he did it was guys like fucking Brian Mitchell ( a game changer!!!). Ernie admitted in the last few years that the Giants had to go the free agency route more than they used to. And if you remember down in Jacksonville the amount of money Coughlin spent on players....... well there's a common denominator there for you.

 

Brought back Brandon Short - huge offseason acquisition despite not getting the notoriety

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i think the point of the free ageng signings is being missed. the reason WHY the giants have decided to open their checkbooks is irrelevant, the point i'm attempting to make is that they ARE signing premium free agents under coughlin. when you compare guys like glenn parker, lomas brown (what'd they last two seasons?), dusty zeigler, brian mitchell, etc to guys like burress, mckenzie, pierce, feely, o'hara, demps, etc it's clear that coughlin is getting WAY more talent to work with. and while we did lock up many players during the fassel era the same holds true for the coughlin era as well. didn't every player other than o'hara (though he might've gotten an extension too, i dont remember) on the offense get locked up till at least '08? no line shuffling from year to year? i'm sure fassel wishes he had that situation when he was here. how about an established (though he IS a little shaky lately) kicker in feely? matt bryant (last week notwithstanding), john markham, owen ponchman, morten anderson, am i missing any of the all star kickers that fassel got after daluiso? i mean it took the giants like 3 years to get him a decent punter after maynard left, didn't it? these are positions that the front office learned (the hard way, unfortunately while fassel was coach) you can't pinch pennies on.

 

jay, why are we saving money on arrington getting hurt? he's still on the roster and he still gets paid.

 

fish, i think you're thinking of jeff hatch. 3rd round pick, back injury, never played for us. i dont blame EA on that one--just one of those freakish things.

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Well, I don’t think Fassel would have pulled a long pass into the end zone on 3rd and one when the object of the game, besides scoring more points, was to keep the ball away from TO, but I’d still take TC any day. I don’t remember a worse Giant coach that held the job for near as long as he did. He was dumb, and he liked dumb players around him. Just his sticking with Danny Kennel and then Collins for so long, stuck in my craw.

 

TC may not be ideal at times, but we’re a lot better off than we were.

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There is a combo of reasons that it appears that we have brought in more players, none more evident that under Fassel we re-signed many of our own free agents or potential free agents to huge deals. Tiki , Sehorn, Strahan, Toomer, Pettigout, Hilliard, Armstead(then cut 3 years later), Hamilton, Williams all recieved big pay day contracts while Fassel was the coach.

 

Some noteable free agents

 

Glenn Parker, Lomas Brown, Dusty Zeigler, Pete Mitchell, Mike Barrow, Kenny Holmes, Brian Mitchell were some of the noteable free agents signed during the Fassel era. Some were good, some were so so.

 

I think the idea of the Giants now signing more free agents stems from two thoughts, one being the cap is higher than it has been in the past and the Giants have had money and #2 and more importantly the Giants have not been forced to address their own players they have developed over the past few years as free agents. What the Giants now do better is locking up their young players before they get to that last year, something we saw Sehorn, Strahan, Tiki and Armstead all do as players under Fassel

 

 

OMG, that list of free agents can't compare talent wise with what the Giants have done in the last 3 years.

 

Also, please let's not forget that the trade for Eli that was made was one that would never even have been considered years ago.

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What you're talking about is what I consider the logistical aspect of coaching: getting and developing players, prepping them for the season and even getting them ready for games.

 

From that standpoint, ass or not, I don't think there are many coaches that are better. I mean, 3 years ago, most people thought of Barber as a very good running back that was fatally flawed. Now people are debating whether or not he makes the HOF. (Imagine if Barber gets that hold adjustment in 2001... :doh: ) Strahan gets IR'd in 2004, and comes back leaner and meaner than before he left. Even, Toomer, who I thought was done at the end of 2004, has transformed himself to the point where he owns the sideline as well as I remember Drew Pearson doing in the 70's. That's not all on Coughlin, of course, but where was all that under Fassel?

 

What I mean by gameday coach is the actual playcalling/adjustments to circumstances on a given Sunday. If his gameplan isn't working, he and his staff seem incapable of making changes during the course of the game. If that happens, it seems like the players need to make the adjustments by themselves in order to win. If they don't, we lose; and rather than just admit being caught off-guard, Coughlin blames "execution."

 

I think that's the major flaw with this coaching staff. Coughlin really doesn't have the compliment to his strength, which would be good play-calling coordinators.

You also forgot that guard that got IR'd before he ever played a regular season game for us.

 

:mellow:

I'm not understanding your argument. Is this a bad thing?

 

 

It's not a bad thing. But if you compare the free agents at fassel's disposal, compared to what we've done since Coughlin came on board, well it doesn't compare.

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We've lucked out with Short because if it wasn't for injuries, he'd still be inactive.

I just like Short. He's a solid player. He's not going to blow you away making stand out plays, but he's simply consistent and reliable. And to have a player like that in a backup role, it says something about your depth.

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Well, I don’t think Fassel would have pulled a long pass into the end zone on 3rd and one when the object of the game, besides scoring more points, was to keep the ball away from TO, but I’d still take TC any day. I don’t remember a worse Giant coach that held the job for near as long as he did. He was dumb, and he liked dumb players around him. Just his sticking with Danny Kennel and then Collins for so long, stuck in my craw.

 

TC may not be ideal at times, but we’re a lot better off than we were.

 

staying with kanell as opposed to who? dave brown? kent graham? he had no other options. same with collins--who was the alternative? jesse palmer? it says a lot when collins was the best qb we had to work with after our championship season until eli came aboard. besides, he won a division title (as his first year as a head coach by the way, who the hell does THAT their first year?) with kanell at the helm. sure kanell sucks but that only further proves how good fassel is with qbs. how about kerry collins? after all his problems in carolina he bombed with new orleans, came to ny, resurrected his career, left ny then BOMBED in oakland and tennessee. coincidence? or was it jim fassel?

 

speaking of palmer, ask yourselves this: how many players was fassel given to work with who no longer have a job in the NFL? im not talking about old players. im talking about guys like palmer, kevin lewis, charles stackhouse. how about all those kickers we had? was anyone else shocked that matt bryant had a job this year? where's matt allen or rodney williams? we relied on those guys for mutliple years to play very important positions for us and fassel was STILL MAKING THE PLAYOFFS EVERY OTHER YEAR. you know how many franchises would take a 7 year span like that? ask any team not named the patriots, broncos, eagles, and colts if they'll take making the playoffs every other year in today's NFL and you'll get the same answer from all of them.

 

this wasn't raelly supposed to be a jim fassel thread, but some of these responses are why i always end up defending a guy who hasn't been our coach in 3 years. i find it unfathamable that no one appreciates the fact that we were fairly competitive over that 7 year stretch. and i've only been watching the team since '93. i wasn't even around for a lot of the dark moments in this franchises history (like, say, every year before parcells) and i can still appreciate fassel after growing up as a giant fan during the dan reeves era. i honestly dont want to hear a thing about how great coughlin is until he gets us out of the first round, cuz as far as im concerned a goose egg in the playoffs (with all these offensive weapons and our best weapon citing the coaching as the reason why we lost) is just as bad as a choked lead

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i think the point of the free ageng signings is being missed. the reason WHY the giants have decided to open their checkbooks is irrelevant, the point i'm attempting to make is that they ARE signing premium free agents under coughlin.

 

I have to disagree. The coach has to convey what he feels are his needs to the front office. If that's not happening, you end up with Ian Allen as a RT. It's not entirely Fassel's fault, but to totally call it irrelevant isn't right, either.

 

fish, i think you're thinking of jeff hatch. 3rd round pick, back injury, never played for us. i dont blame EA on that one--just one of those freakish things.

I was thinking of Barry Stokes. Free agent that came over with O'Hara. He's very easy to forget.

 

staying with kanell as opposed to who? dave brown? kent graham? he had no other options. same with collins--who was the alternative? jesse palmer? it says a lot when collins was the best qb we had to work with after our championship season until eli came aboard. besides, he won a division title (as his first year as a head coach by the way, who the hell does THAT their first year?) with kanell at the helm. sure kanell sucks but that only further proves how good fassel is with qbs. how about kerry collins? after all his problems in carolina he bombed with new orleans, came to ny, resurrected his career, left ny then BOMBED in oakland and tennessee. coincidence? or was it jim fassel?

 

Ok, Fassel was a good QB coach. I don't want Mike Pope as a Head Coach, either.

 

Seriously, the Dave Brown experiment really messed that entire decade up for us. When it finally sunk in that it was a failure, there was really a drought of quality QBs coming out of the draft.

 

speaking of palmer, ask yourselves this: how many players was fassel given to work with who no longer have a job in the NFL? im not talking about old players. im talking about guys like palmer, kevin lewis, charles stackhouse. how about all those kickers we had? was anyone else shocked that matt bryant had a job this year? where's matt allen or rodney williams? we relied on those guys for mutliple years to play very important positions for us and fassel was STILL MAKING THE PLAYOFFS EVERY OTHER YEAR. you know how many franchises would take a 7 year span like that? ask any team not named the patriots, broncos, eagles, and colts if they'll take making the playoffs every other year in today's NFL and you'll get the same answer from all of them.

 

Minnesota and St. Louis wouldn't. Does that make Dennis Green and Mike Martz good coaches? What made Green Bay a perennial playoff team? Weak divisions. It's almost embarrassing to the NFC that the Packers have been a playoff team for as long as they have. Does it really shock you that once Philly started to get it's act together under Reid that we only appeared as a wild card once?

 

this wasn't raelly supposed to be a jim fassel thread, but some of these responses are why i always end up defending a guy who hasn't been our coach in 3 years. i find it unfathamable that no one appreciates the fact that we were fairly competitive over that 7 year stretch. and i've only been watching the team since '93. i wasn't even around for a lot of the dark moments in this franchises history (like, say, every year before parcells) and i can still appreciate fassel after growing up as a giant fan during the dan reeves era. i honestly dont want to hear a thing about how great coughlin is until he gets us out of the first round, cuz as far as im concerned a goose egg in the playoffs (with all these offensive weapons and our best weapon citing the coaching as the reason why we lost) is just as bad as a choked lead

 

You have Fassel, I have Perkins. You want to talk about a guy that gets 0 credit? ;)

 

I'm defending Coughlin way more than I really want to on this thread. He's flawed. But on the other hand, he almost completely reversed our 2003 record in his second year. If he manages another winning record this year (which would definitely be a down year for Fassel), can we at least afford him some recognition?

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OMG, that list of free agents can't compare talent wise with what the Giants have done in the last 3 years.

 

Also, please let's not forget that the trade for Eli that was made was one that would never even have been considered years ago.

 

You cannot talk about how the Head Coach brought us to a SUper Bowl and discount the fact that 4 key free agents were signed to that team that went to the SB. Brown, Parker, Zeigler and Barrow were all 2000 season free agents and played key roles on that team. If the coach gets credit, then so do the players and those were 4 free agents on that team.

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This idea of playoffs every other year only held true in 2000 and 2002, We were shut out of them in 98 and 99.

 

I think everyone is discounting the way that we were signiong our own big name free agents more under Fassel and that was leading to less activity signing other players. Yes we have a line that is locked up, but none of our linemen in free agency with the exception of Snee when his deal is up are going to garner huge paydays elsewhere where we might not be able to match. They were smart lockingt Diehl up to a pedestrian type deal.

 

I also think as time goes on we lessen the impact that certain players had, once upon a time Mike Barrow was viewed here as Antonio Pierce is now. He solidified our MLB spot and was a borderline pro bowler for 2-3 seasons.

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You have Fassel, I have Perkins. You want to talk about a guy that gets 0 credit? ;)

Ha, I have Ray Handley. :doh: I became a fan in 86 but I was young at the time. I loved them in 90 but yet again I was 10. I did not start paying attention to the whole season til after the parcells era ended.

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"jay, why are we saving money on arrington getting hurt? he's still on the roster and he still gets paid."

 

 

A lot of the amount of his payday each year is based on performance. He didnt, nor is he going to :TU::TD:<_<

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"jay, why are we saving money on arrington getting hurt? he's still on the roster and he still gets paid."

A lot of the amount of his payday each year is based on performance. He didnt, nor is he going to :TU::TD:<_<

 

oh i see, you are talking about the incentives in his contracts, i thought you meant base pay

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  • 2 weeks later...
ahem...

 

calling timeout with 16 seconds left before houston punts so we can throw a stupid medium pass at the end of the half--which was intercepted. awesome idea

happens every game...i cringe everytime we get the ball right before the half ends. giants seem so indecisive at that time. it's going to bite them in the ass one of these days.

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