How Tom Coughlin has failed the Giants

[Herc]

these guys all work together and what isn't delegated is signed off on. organization failure from top to bottom starting with mara. if he wasn't happy with coughlin last year he should've manned up and fired him instead of this hiring a coordinator no one wanted bullshit

[Tempest]

 

JPP, Cruz, Randle, Moore...I'd even suggest Paysinger and Williams too.

 

You must be joking about this list. This is your list of players that have declined since their rookie year because Tom Coughlin can't coach?

 

Spencer Paysinger? Which year was he a great linebacker? How amazing was he that the Giants went and signed McClain this offseason?

 

Rueben Randle is having his best season right now, what did he do his first two seasons to consider his third a decline?

 

Damontre Moore, where is his decline?

 

For all the shit we give Jaquain Williams this is the first time he is playing three downs since being drafted and of course before being injured.

 

JPP and Cruz had a pro bowl year in their second season and there simply aren't many players who can reproduce it back to back because teams start scheming around them.

[Treehugger]

Damontre Moore, where is his decline?

 

 

Where is his development?

[Tempest]

 

Where is his development?

 

Can't blame it 100% on coaching, sounds more like 5%. Johnathan Hankins is out there starting and playing with the same draft class and coach.

[Herc]

Randles production is up because his targets are way up. He looked better his first season

[fishgutmartyr]

 

The Giants have won 4 Super Bowls, and exactly 1 time (1986) can someone make the argument that they were clearly the best team in the league.

 

That 1990 season was built upon maybe the best coaching job in Giants history.....a staff that included Parcells, Belichick, and Coughlin, beating a team that absolutely wiped the floor with the Raiders (a 13-3 team) in the AFCCG. On paper, the Bills were the best team that year.

 

 

Joe, we started the season 10-0 1990. We were one of the best teams in the league, without a doubt. The only reason we weren't favored in the SB was because we didn't have Simms or Hampton.

 

Buffalo dominated a signifcantly inferior AFC that year. If San Fran had won the NFC championship, they would have had their 3rd consecutive Lombardi.

 

That 1990 team was far better than most people seem to remember.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

 

Joe, we started the season 10-0 1990. We were one of the best teams in the league, without a doubt. The only reason we weren't favored in the SB was because we didn't have Simms or Hampton.

 

Buffalo dominated a signifcantly inferior AFC that year. If San Fran had won the NFC championship, they would have had their 3rd consecutive Lombardi.

 

That 1990 team was far better than most people seem to remember.

Beat me too it... I agree with Gut... remember that year we were seen as the 69'ers only legitimate rival ...not just in the NFC but the NFL... The Ronnie Lott/Phil Simms confrontation was the hallmark of that rivalry after the MNF game.

[fishgutmartyr]

 

You must be joking about this list. This is your list of players that have declined since their rookie year because Tom Coughlin can't coach?

 

Spencer Paysinger? Which year was he a great linebacker? How amazing was he that the Giants went and signed McClain this offseason?

 

Rueben Randle is having his best season right now, what did he do his first two seasons to consider his third a decline?

 

Damontre Moore, where is his decline?

 

For all the shit we give Jaquain Williams this is the first time he is playing three downs since being drafted and of course before being injured.

 

JPP and Cruz had a pro bowl year in their second season and there simply aren't many players who can reproduce it back to back because teams start scheming around them.

 

Cruz was on IR his rookie year. JPP had almost no playing time behind Osi his first year. So to say they improved their second season is kind of sketchy, unless you're counting "healing" and "getting playing time" as an improvement.

 

Damontre Moore can't even get onto the field.

 

The correctable flaws in William's technique are still there from his rookie season--which is the polar opposite of what we saw in guys like Chase Blackburn and Nick Greisen. That's a fair comparison--none of these guys were ever going to be top-flight linebackers, but the last two were coached up to be NFL players, albeit primarily backup/marginal starters. There's some things coaching won't fix--he's not too big, so Williams is going to have trouble shedding blocks for instance--but he took himself out of plays during the Seattle game--that should not be happening with this consistency at this point in his career.

 

Frankly, saying a rookie hasn't declined since coming to the team is not trashing Tree's argument about coaching. Especially when a rookie's technique not improving over a few years is damning.

[Treehugger]

 

Frankly, saying a rookie hasn't declined since coming to the team is not trashing Tree's argument about coaching. Especially when a rookie's technique not improving over a few years is damning.

 

Thank you.

[JMFP]

 

Joe, we started the season 10-0 1990. We were one of the best teams in the league, without a doubt. The only reason we weren't favored in the SB was because we didn't have Simms or Hampton.

 

Buffalo dominated a signifcantly inferior AFC that year. If San Fran had won the NFC championship, they would have had their 3rd consecutive Lombardi.

 

That 1990 team was far better than most people seem to remember.

 

Yes, we started out well, and lost Simms for the season. And we beat SF on the road, because frankly they were a better team....I'd take Montana over Hoss.

[JMFP]

 

Thank you.

 

So......according to your logic, you should be thanking Coughlin for coaching up Beckham.

[Nas]

I'm afraid you guys are grabbing with arguments that can be contradicted and counter contradicted... Let's just agree our DC sucks camel balls.

[JMFP]

I also suppose that Coughlin has had no influence on Eli Manning.

[Tempest]

 

Cruz was on IR his rookie year. JPP had almost no playing time behind Osi his first year. So to say they improved their second season is kind of sketchy, unless you're counting "healing" and "getting playing time" as an improvement.

 

Damontre Moore can't even get onto the field.

 

The correctable flaws in William's technique are still there from his rookie season--which is the polar opposite of what we saw in guys like Chase Blackburn and Nick Greisen. That's a fair comparison--none of these guys were ever going to be top-flight linebackers, but the last two were coached up to be NFL players, albeit primarily backup/marginal starters. There's some things coaching won't fix--he's not too big, so Williams is going to have trouble shedding blocks for instance--but he took himself out of plays during the Seattle game--that should not be happening with this consistency at this point in his career.

 

Frankly, saying a rookie hasn't declined since coming to the team is not trashing Tree's argument about coaching. Especially when a rookie's technique not improving over a few years is damning.

 

Don't have to trash his argument about coaching because he has failed to make one. Hell we can still find flaws in Eli Manning's technique and he is in his 11th season.

 

You guys want to see some bad coaching I challenge you to watch a month of Jets football.

[fishgutmartyr]

 

So......according to your logic, you should be thanking Coughlin for coaching up Beckham.

 

That doesn't make sense, Joe. The only thing Beckham has proved so far is that he came into the league with a great deal of talent. I would be hesitant to trash the WR coach anyway--Ryan's only been in the spot for 1 preseason this go-round, during an offensive overhaul. Last time he was in this spot, he helped develop Nicks and Cruz.

 

But you have to look at play year over year.

 

I also suppose that Coughlin has had no influence on Eli Manning.

 

Probably not as much as you think--Coughlin has to administrate an entire team. The QB coach and OC probably have much more influence. You really don't want to be reminded who his first QB coach was.

 

 

Don't have to trash his argument about coaching because he has failed to make one. Hell we can still find flaws in Eli Manning's technique and he is in his 11th season.

 

You guys want to see some bad coaching I challenge you to watch a month of Jets football.

 

Of course you can find flaws in Manning's game--he's human. But on the other hand, you can't say he's the same player that was getting his ass whipped in 2004. If he was, he damn sure wouldn't have gotten the second contract.

 

Unfortunately, you can say that about Williams at this point. And Paysinger. That's the problem.

 

Let me put this another way: Mike Waufle was the defensive line coach from 2004-2010. Players that improved under him: Umenyiora, Cofield, Tuck, Robbins, Clancy, Alford, Tollefson. Robbins and Clancy were FAs, sure, but they did better here than they did on their previous teams, and Clancy pretty much dropped off of the map once he left. Sure, some guys never did, others not enough; but some of the guys that did develop, like Cofield, were drafted lower than the 3rd round.

 

Meanwhile, Nunn's list: Joseph, maybe Hankins, doubtfully JPP. We're playing Kuhn, but once upon a time we played William Joseph, too.

 

You can do the same with linebackers:

 

Sheridan: Greisen, Blackburn, Torbor. Wilkinson (sorta)

 

Hermann: Goff (sorta)

 

Now I'm not gonna lie: this is clash of the midgets--and all of these players would have to reach up to touch Byron Hunt's cleats, but Sheridan did get more out of what he was given than Hermann is.

 

It's grey--I love what Flaherty developed in the past, but he's not getting what he needs to get now from his players, and hasn't for some time with the exception of Beatty. We have some really good position coaches, too--Guinta, Merritt, Ryan; but to dismiss this argument out of hand is looking at things without shading.

 

There is definitely some crap drafting going on.

[Sephiroth]

 

Probably not as much as you think--Coughlin has to administrate an entire team. The QB coach and OC probably have much more influence. You really don't want to be reminded who his first QB coach was.

 

 

Of course you can find flaws in Manning's game--he's human. But on the other hand, you can't say he's the same player that was getting his ass whipped in 2004. If he was, he damn sure wouldn't have gotten the second contract.

 

Unfortunately, you can say that about Williams at this point. And Paysinger. That's the problem.

 

Let me put this another way: Mike Waufle was the defensive line coach from 2004-2010. Players that improved under him: Umenyiora, Cofield, Tuck, Robbins, Clancy, Alford, Tollefson. Robbins and Clancy were FAs, sure, but they did better here than they did on their previous teams, and Clancy pretty much dropped off of the map once he left. Sure, some guys never did, others not enough; but some of the guys that did develop, like Cofield, were drafted lower than the 3rd round.

 

Meanwhile, Nunn's list: Joseph, maybe Hankins, doubtfully JPP. We're playing Kuhn, but once upon a time we played William Joseph, too.

 

You can do the same with linebackers:

 

Sheridan: Greisen, Blackburn, Torbor. Wilkinson (sorta)

 

Hermann: Goff (sorta)

 

Now I'm not gonna lie: this is clash of the midgets--and all of these players would have to reach up to touch Byron Hunt's cleats, but Sheridan did get more out of what he was given than Hermann is.

 

It's grey--I love what Flaherty developed in the past, but he's not getting what he needs to get now from his players, and hasn't for some time with the exception of Beatty. We have some really good position coaches, too--Guinta, Merritt, Ryan; but to dismiss this argument out of hand is looking at things without shading.

 

There is definitely some crap drafting going on.

 

These are all great points.

 

I'd also like to point out to all the people that think Coughlin should stay... while he himself may still be a very good coach... he's the guy in charge of hiring all these guys that are inefficient.

 

Most of us would like to see Fewell and Quinn gone. So within a 12-month period of time, management would be saying that the offense, defense, and special teams were all sub-par, but it would NOT be the head coach's fault. What other business is run like that?

 

This is a failure from top to bottom. Mara needs to let everyone go he can and start fresh. That San Francisco game told us everything we needed to know... its over.

[Treehugger]

 

So......according to your logic, you should be thanking Coughlin for coaching up Beckham.

 

That's not my logic at all. Beckham is showing us how talented he is as a rookie. That's the slate Coughlin has to work with, and the benchmark to improve upon. I fear he'll only regress in following years without competent coaching. Just like Cruz, who showed tons of natural playmaking ability early on, which seems to have been stripped from his game now. He's nothing like the threat he used to be.

[gmenroc]

 

That's not my logic at all. Beckham is showing us how talented he is as a rookie. That's the slate Coughlin has to work with, and the benchmark to improve upon. I fear he'll only regress in following years without competent coaching. Just like Cruz, who showed tons of natural playmaking ability early on, which seems to have been stripped from his game now. He's nothing like the threat he used to be.

 

That argument is skewed HEAVILY by defenses scheming to take those players out of the game. There is also game tape that has defenses learning tendencies, strengths, weaknesses, etc.

 

This is also when you get into the discussion of it being a team game of individual matchups...not only individual matchups. Take Cruz for example...started off as an unknown and burst onto the scene. Took a season, but has since earned the respect to where defenses commit a safety over the top and man coverage underneath...essentially double covering Cruz. Cruz can still beat the underneath coverage, but the big plays aren't as rampant as they once were. So he's remained viable and productive, but it appears as if he's not where he once was. In the case of a double team, someone else needs to step up. I'll be very interested to see him and Beckham work together, assuming Cruz comes back from the knee injury in the same condition he was in prior.

[NightFire]

Another issue with Cruz is he became very soft. When was the last time he took a hit to get extra yards? When he is surrounded, he usually slides. I think we all remember his give up fumble.

 

[Nas]

Another issue with Cruz is he became very soft. When was the last time he took a hit to get extra yards? When he is surrounded, he usually slides. I think we all remember his give up fumble.

 

My last memory of him trying for that extra yard resulted of a fumble and essentially losing the game... in this league no one star WR can be dangerous without another one on the other side to take the pressure. Cruz can be very good.. and he was when Nicks was here.. and he wasn't when Nicks was well.. not playing too well... Like Roc said, I'd love to see what he can do (assuming he's healthy again) with ODB on the field as well.

[Treehugger]

 

That argument is skewed HEAVILY by defenses scheming to take those players out of the game. There is also game tape that has defenses learning tendencies, strengths, weaknesses, etc.

 

This is also when you get into the discussion of it being a team game of individual matchups...not only individual matchups. Take Cruz for example...started off as an unknown and burst onto the scene. Took a season, but has since earned the respect to where defenses commit a safety over the top and man coverage underneath...essentially double covering Cruz. Cruz can still beat the underneath coverage, but the big plays aren't as rampant as they once were. So he's remained viable and productive, but it appears as if he's not where he once was. In the case of a double team, someone else needs to step up. I'll be very interested to see him and Beckham work together, assuming Cruz comes back from the knee injury in the same condition he was in prior.

 

That's part of it, but it's not the entire reason he was kept out of the endzone for what...12 games? A big part is they tried to make him an X receiver, which he clearly isn't.

[gmenroc]

 

That's part of it, but it's not the entire reason he was kept out of the endzone for what...12 games? A big part is they tried to make him an X receiver, which he clearly isn't.

 

I think there's too much emphasis on X, Y, Z positions among receivers. I believe the skill set differs far less than many believe. You can have possession receivers on the inside or the outside...same as you can have guys running downfield from any receiver position.

[Allstarjim]

 

I think there's too much emphasis on X, Y, Z positions among receivers. I believe the skill set differs far less than many believe. You can have possession receivers on the inside or the outside...same as you can have guys running downfield from any receiver position.

Wes Welker is far less effective on the outside. Same as Cruz, very quick guys that can operate in space that might not have the size and wingspan of say, Brandon Marshall, are clearly more suited to play out of the slot. Someone like Marshall's physical advantages are diminished if he plays inside, where the likelihood is greater he can't take advantage of one on one matchups. I think just about every organization would disagree with your assessment. And part of the equation is the amount of time the ball is in the air. You need a more physical player on the outside where the time the ball is in the air is longer, where they can out-muscle contested balls, which, there are more of on the outside. Similarly, a quick guy inside only needs to get open for a moment to have a short throw to get to him, which works to the benefit of his skill set, like Cruz.

[gmenroc]

Wes Welker is far less effective on the outside. Same as Cruz, very quick guys that can operate in space that might not have the size and wingspan of say, Brandon Marshall, are clearly more suited to play out of the slot. Someone like Marshall's physical advantages are diminished if he plays inside, where the likelihood is greater he can't take advantage of one on one matchups. I think just about every organization would disagree with your assessment. And part of the equation is the amount of time the ball is in the air. You need a more physical player on the outside where the time the ball is in the air is longer, where they can out-muscle contested balls, which, there are more of on the outside. Similarly, a quick guy inside only needs to get open for a moment to have a short throw to get to him, which works to the benefit of his skill set, like Cruz.

 

I could line Cruz up on the outside, have him run a "slot route" while having the typically outside WR, run a fly pattern out of the slot without altering much of anything except the coverages. I don't buy the air time for the ball argument. If the route can be run by the player that's supposed to run it, I don't know that it matters which player runs it or from what position it's run.

[Nas]

 

I could line Cruz up on the outside, have him run a "slot route" while having the typically outside WR, run a fly pattern out of the slot without altering much of anything except the coverages. I don't buy the air time for the ball argument. If the route can be run by the player that's supposed to run it, I don't know that it matters which player runs it or from what position it's run.

 

I tend to think of the physical attributes of an X receiver... should be able to win the jump ball.. whereas the slot has to be able to stop on a dime.