"Tom Coughlin cannot be blamed for Giants struggles"

[Bigblue25]

In relation to injuries. It's not like the free agent acquisitions/draft picks have been pillars of health elsewhere and then came to the Giants and got hurt out of nowhere.

[fishgutmartyr]

First of all, it's the NFL. The job description is basically "run into each other really, really hard." Most players have been injured somewhere along the way; particularly since between high school, college, and their draft contract ends, they've already played the game for the better part of a decade.

 

Cruz hasn't been injured before, and it was a weird injury. Beason has been injured, but not his foot before. I don't recall Schwartz or Thurmond being injury-prone. Akumura has a torn bicep, which isn't what you'd expect happening to a CB, at least I don't.

 

Nobody knew about Wilson's stenosis until after his injury. Same with Phillips' degenerative knee.

 

Corey Webster played his senior year in college with a bad foot--we drafted him and got a quality starter for years. Reese drafts Thomas who had one knee injury before years earlier that was ok by his senior year, and got a couple of years out of him, too--unfortunately, not for the same length of time we had Webster. But you can't fault Reese and praise Accorsi for doing the same thing.

 

You can't really fault a GM for injuries--and if you could, I could think of a few years where you would have to say Accorsi screwed up, too--does anyone remember who the linebackers were in the 2005 playoff game?

[CrazedDogs]

I remember that game... can't remember the linebackers, all I remember is the lack of linebackers probably cost the Giants that game.

[fringe]

First of all, it's the NFL. The job description is basically "run into each other really, really hard." Most players have been injured somewhere along the way; particularly since between high school, college, and their draft contract ends, they've already played the game for the better part of a decade.

 

Cruz hasn't been injured before, and it was a weird injury. Beason has been injured, but not his foot before. I don't recall Schwartz or Thurmond being injury-prone. Akumura has a torn bicep, which isn't what you'd expect happening to a CB, at least I don't.

 

Nobody knew about Wilson's stenosis until after his injury. Same with Phillips' degenerative knee.

 

Corey Webster played his senior year in college with a bad foot--we drafted him and got a quality starter for years. Reese drafts Thomas who had one knee injury before years earlier that was ok by his senior year, and got a couple of years out of him, too--unfortunately, not for the same length of time we had Webster. But you can't fault Reese and praise Accorsi for doing the same thing.

 

You can't really fault a GM for injuries--and if you could, I could think of a few years where you would have to say Accorsi screwed up, too--does anyone remember who the linebackers were in the 2005 playoff game?

Chase Blackburn

[Tempest]

First of all, it's the NFL. The job description is basically "run into each other really, really hard." Most players have been injured somewhere along the way; particularly since between high school, college, and their draft contract ends, they've already played the game for the better part of a decade.

 

Cruz hasn't been injured before, and it was a weird injury. Beason has been injured, but not his foot before. I don't recall Schwartz or Thurmond being injury-prone. Akumura has a torn bicep, which isn't what you'd expect happening to a CB, at least I don't.

 

Nobody knew about Wilson's stenosis until after his injury. Same with Phillips' degenerative knee.

 

Corey Webster played his senior year in college with a bad foot--we drafted him and got a quality starter for years. Reese drafts Thomas who had one knee injury before years earlier that was ok by his senior year, and got a couple of years out of him, too--unfortunately, not for the same length of time we had Webster. But you can't fault Reese and praise Accorsi for doing the same thing.

 

You can't really fault a GM for injuries--and if you could, I could think of a few years where you would have to say Accorsi screwed up, too--does anyone remember who the linebackers were in the 2005 playoff game?

 

Nick Greisen and Kevin Lewis

[Bigblue25]

First of all, it's the NFL. The job description is basically "run into each other really, really hard." Most players have been injured somewhere along the way; particularly since between high school, college, and their draft contract ends, they've already played the game for the better part of a decade.

 

Cruz hasn't been injured before, and it was a weird injury. Beason has been injured, but not his foot before. I don't recall Schwartz or Thurmond being injury-prone. Akumura has a torn bicep, which isn't what you'd expect happening to a CB, at least I don't.

 

Nobody knew about Wilson's stenosis until after his injury. Same with Phillips' degenerative knee.

 

Corey Webster played his senior year in college with a bad foot--we drafted him and got a quality starter for years. Reese drafts Thomas who had one knee injury before years earlier that was ok by his senior year, and got a couple of years out of him, too--unfortunately, not for the same length of time we had Webster. But you can't fault Reese and praise Accorsi for doing the same thing.

 

You can't really fault a GM for injuries--and if you could, I could think of a few years where you would have to say Accorsi screwed up, too--does anyone remember who the linebackers were in the 2005 playoff game?

I wasn't knocking Reese, just saying the guys that are struggling with injuries have struggled in the past(at least some.) Phillips also tore his ACL in college, Schwartz was injured in Carolina. Yes...some have been purely freak accidents like Thurmond's or Mook's

[JMFP]

 

That's true. We do lead the league in IR, and with the exception of DRC (injured), Walton, and Jerry, it reads like this year's FA class; with a few crucial additions.

 

We probably do lead the league in starter-games-missed, but I'm not sure. If we do, it would be the second year running.

 

 

As for Shawn Williams and Will Allen: Williams spent more time on IR than on the field--and never really got it going. When he was relatively healthy, he'd get starts--but they were William Joseph starts, if you know what I mean.

 

Will Allen got injured a lot, but was better at staying on the field. To be fair, he was decent in coverage, but couldn't get an INT at gun-point. He'd drop passes that seemed to have been thrown to him.

 

This team has been among the most-injured NFL teams for the last 5 years.

 

I'm not going to pin the whole mess on the strength and conditioning squad, but something ain't right.

[CrazedDogs]

the obvious answer is somebody sold their soul for those Lombardis.

[fishgutmartyr]

Nick Grieson, Kevin Lewis, and Jay Foreman. Grieson was injured. Foreman wasn't on the team in the beginning of the season. (I think Lewis was cut in preseason, and had to be brought back, but I'm not sure of that.) None of those guys were supposed to be starters.

 

Sorry bigblue, but with all the blame-game going on, it's hard to keep track. It's especially frustrating because I don't think Reese or Coughlin are more to blame than anyone else.

 

This season has seen injuries, age/attrition, slow development, and disappointing results in what should have been strengths--plenty of blame for all facets of this team. Pinning it on one or two guys isn't going to fix this--Mara has to look at the whole thing.

 

I'll even admit it isn't all on Fewell--he's a flat-out bad coordinator (I'm saying this because of a 5-year record, not just this season), but he isn't responsible for specials or the oline. He isn't getting the players stretched, or handling injuries.

[Storm]

 

That's true. We do lead the league in IR, and with the exception of DRC (injured), Walton, and Jerry, it reads like this year's FA class; with a few crucial additions.

 

We probably do lead the league in starter-games-missed, but I'm not sure. If we do, it would be the second year running.

 

 

As for Shawn Williams and Will Allen: Williams spent more time on IR than on the field--and never really got it going. When he was relatively healthy, he'd get starts--but they were William Joseph starts, if you know what I mean.

 

Will Allen got injured a lot, but was better at staying on the field. To be fair, he was decent in coverage, but couldn't get an INT at gun-point. He'd drop passes that seemed to have been thrown to him.

 

William Peterson was probably the better pick between the Wills, too. I guess he's WIlliam James now...

[JMFP]

Nick Grieson, Kevin Lewis, and Jay Foreman. Grieson was injured. Foreman wasn't on the team in the beginning of the season. (I think Lewis was cut in preseason, and had to be brought back, but I'm not sure of that.) None of those guys were supposed to be starters.

 

Sorry bigblue, but with all the blame-game going on, it's hard to keep track. It's especially frustrating because I don't think Reese or Coughlin are more to blame than anyone else.

 

This season has seen injuries, age/attrition, slow development, and disappointing results in what should have been strengths--plenty of blame for all facets of this team. Pinning it on one or two guys isn't going to fix this--Mara has to look at the whole thing.

 

I'll even admit it isn't all on Fewell--he's a flat-out bad coordinator (I'm saying this because of a 5-year record, not just this season), but he isn't responsible for specials or the oline. He isn't getting the players stretched, or handling injuries.

 

Great points, Fish.

 

I tend to level my criticism more at Fewell than anyone else, followed by Reese. But as much as I defend TC, he doesn't deserve a pass either. He is the head coach, and he's guilty of "A" or "B":

 

A) Burying promising youngsters on the depth chart when it's painfully obvious that older vets (e.g., Kiwi) should no longer be starters.

B) Allowing his coordinators to do "A".

 

Honestly, I have no idea if the "Kiwi" situation should be pinned on Fewell or Coughlin. My gut tells me that Coughlin gives his coordinators alot of leeway with respect to the installation of the game plan as well as the allocation of snaps. Frankly, snap count is more important than the depth chart.

 

But even if this is a Fewell thing, then Coughlin is still at fault for allowing alot of this crap to happen.

 

Of course, to your point, neither Fewell nor Coughlin can control the Injury Plague that has now hit this team for the 5th year in a row. Nor are the draft busts Fewell's fault....Marvin Austin being a recent painful reminder, for example.

 

Like you said, failure is an orphan, but in fact, it was a gang bang.

[Treehugger]

They haven't been playing Moore because he's lost in run defense. The fact that he's been on the roster nearly two years and still can't play the position properly points to an alarming lack of player development.

[JMFP]

They haven't been playing Moore because he's lost in run defense. The fact that he's been on the roster nearly two years and still can't play the position properly points to an alarming lack of player development.

 

Could be a case of a dumb ass player (Reese), an overly complicated scheme (Fewell), or a combination of both.

 

I would tend to blame Fewell for this, and Nunn....... they are nowhere near Spags and Waufle, respectively, in their ability to get the most out of their guys.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

 

Great points, Fish.

 

I tend to level my criticism more at Fewell than anyone else, followed by Reese. But as much as I defend TC, he doesn't deserve a pass either. He is the head coach, and he's guilty of "A" or "B":

 

A) Burying promising youngsters on the depth chart when it's painfully obvious that older vets (e.g., Kiwi) should no longer be starters.

B) Allowing his coordinators to do "A".

 

Honestly, I have no idea if the "Kiwi" situation should be pinned on Fewell or Coughlin. My gut tells me that Coughlin gives his coordinators alot of leeway with respect to the installation of the game plan as well as the allocation of snaps. Frankly, snap count is more important than the depth chart.

 

But even if this is a Fewell thing, then Coughlin is still at fault for allowing alot of this crap to happen.

 

Of course, to your point, neither Fewell nor Coughlin can control the Injury Plague that has now hit this team for the 5th year in a row. Nor are the draft busts Fewell's fault....Marvin Austin being a recent painful reminder, for example.

 

Like you said, failure is an orphan, but in fact, it was a gang bang.

I think Kiwi was forever fucked by two things... the first was Cheerleader going all Ape Shit on him for not planting that Tennessee QB during his rookie season... a planting that would have earned him a personal foul at least... the second was that they kept asking him to play out of position as some hybrid lineman/linebacker... so you take away one of his strengths...rushing the passer and ask him to check down and cover TE's and RB's out of the backfield and cover...in space no less... one of his weaknesses... and then when he gets to be barely tolerable playing out of position they stuff him back onto the line with two thirds of his playing career behind him. These tweener experiments never really work well all that often.

[JMFP]

I think Kiwi was forever fucked by two things... the first was Cheerleader going all Ape Shit on him for not planting that Tennessee QB during his rookie season... a planting that would have earned him a personal foul at least... the second was that they kept asking him to play out of position as some hybrid lineman/linebacker... so you take away one of his strengths...rushing the passer and ask him to check down and cover TE's and RB's out of the backfield and cover...in space no less... one of his weaknesses... and then when he gets to be barely tolerable playing out of position they stuff him back onto the line with two thirds of his playing career behind him. These tweener experiments never really work well all that often.

 

Good points, and agreed. This is why I don't like trashing Kiwi. The dude has been a trooper, and has 2 rings for his efforts. Trashing him is like trashing Diehl. Not Kiwi's fault that guys like Austin were total busts.

 

Another thing is that Kiwi has been through some serious injuries.....a nasty fractured leg, plus back/neck injuries. That shit adds up.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

 

Good points, and agreed. This is why I don't like trashing Kiwi. The dude has been a trooper, and has 2 rings for his efforts. Trashing him is like trashing Diehl. Not Kiwi's fault that guys like Austin were total busts.

 

Another thing is that Kiwi has been through some serious injuries.....a nasty fractured leg, plus back/neck injuries. That shit adds up.

Agree... he should be lauded for his selflessness ... not kicked because he can't do the job that they kept plugging him in to do. And Fewell's defense is too read and react.... but Spag's had the beauty of dealing with Hall of Famers and quality linemen in abundance. Real easy to draw up a killer game plan. I think we should go with a proven college or pro defensive coordinator... cause what we have is seriously broken.

[Tempest]

Agree... he should be lauded for his selflessness ... not kicked because he can't do the job that they kept plugging him in to do. And Fewell's defense is too read and react.... but Spag's had the beauty of dealing with Hall of Famers and quality linemen in abundance. Real easy to draw up a killer game plan. I think we should go with a proven college or pro defensive coordinator... cause what we have is seriously broken.

 

I think the fire Fewell media session will be honest. Need another coordinator who can do better job with the weapons in the arsenal.

[Sephiroth]

They haven't been playing Moore because he's lost in run defense. The fact that he's been on the roster nearly two years and still can't play the position properly points to an alarming lack of player development.

 

Kiwi can't play the run either. I'd rather stick with the guy with upside than the 10-year vet if their performance is similar.

[CrazedDogs]

I think Kiwi was forever fucked by two things... the first was Cheerleader going all Ape Shit on him for not planting that Tennessee QB during his rookie season... a planting that would have earned him a personal foul at least... the second was that they kept asking him to play out of position as some hybrid lineman/linebacker... so you take away one of his strengths...rushing the passer and ask him to check down and cover TE's and RB's out of the backfield and cover...in space no less... one of his weaknesses... and then when he gets to be barely tolerable playing out of position they stuff him back onto the line with two thirds of his playing career behind him. These tweener experiments never really work well all that often.

 

I disagree that pass rushing is one of his strengths, the man has the leg length of a 7'er. He's never been able to get low and turn the corner on NFL offensive tackles.

 

You have a point though about moving the guy around too much, and he was definitely asked to cover far too much. The position that I liked him best in, aside from the obvious, as a 3rd or 4th pass rusher, was as a downhill SAM backer - minimal coverage, just take on blockers and win at the point of attack. He was damn good at that. And he wasn't bad in coverage either as long as it was an in-line TE not named Jason Witten.

[BlueInCanada]

 

I disagree that pass rushing is one of his strengths, the man has the leg length of a 7'er. He's never been able to get low and turn the corner on NFL offensive tackles.

 

You have a point though about moving the guy around too much, and he was definitely asked to cover far too much. The position that I liked him best in, aside from the obvious, as a 3rd or 4th pass rusher, was as a downhill SAM backer - minimal coverage, just take on blockers and win at the point of attack. He was damn good at that. And he wasn't bad in coverage either as long as it was an in-line TE not named Jason Witten.

 

Kiwi would of made a better 3-4 LB or just being converted to a LB from day one.

 

He was never a good DE, he lacked speed to get around the right side and lacked strength to bull rush the left side. Like you said he would of made a better LB, he was quick enough to get to the ball on run plays and he would have the advantage of not having to go toe-to-toe with a tackle if he has to rush the QB.

 

He's never been that pro-bowl talent but he has been on the team and contributed for more than four seasons, which is much more than most first round picks can do for a team now a days.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

 

I disagree that pass rushing is one of his strengths, the man has the leg length of a 7'er. He's never been able to get low and turn the corner on NFL offensive tackles.

 

You have a point though about moving the guy around too much, and he was definitely asked to cover far too much. The position that I liked him best in, aside from the obvious, as a 3rd or 4th pass rusher, was as a downhill SAM backer - minimal coverage, just take on blockers and win at the point of attack. He was damn good at that. And he wasn't bad in coverage either as long as it was an in-line TE not named Jason Witten.

Hey Crazed...when I wrote strength... I meant what he was originally drafted for to play DE... maybe what should have been written was where he was most comfortable and/or had the skill set for at least mediocre play. Wasn't implying that he was all world at the position.

[Tempest]

 

Kiwi can't play the run either. I'd rather stick with the guy with upside than the 10-year vet if their performance is similar.

 

Yeah but you are thinking only of the positives and ignoring the negatives.

[Bigblue25]

They haven't been playing Moore because he's lost in run defense. The fact that he's been on the roster nearly two years and still can't play the position properly points to an alarming lack of player development.

I guess there's only so much you can learn without seeing real game speed, but I get what they see in practice

[Bigblue25]

They haven't been playing Moore because he's lost in run defense. The fact that he's been on the roster nearly two years and still can't play the position properly points to an alarming lack of player development.

I guess there's only so much you can learn without seeing real game speed, but I get what they see in practice

[Bigblue25]

They haven't been playing Moore because he's lost in run defense. The fact that he's been on the roster nearly two years and still can't play the position properly points to an alarming lack of player development.

I guess there's only so much you can learn without seeing real game speed, but I get what they see in practice