"Tom Coughlin cannot be blamed for Giants struggles"

[JMFP]

Written prior to the Cowboys loss.

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000431266/article/tom-coughlin-cannot-be-blamed-for-new-york-giants-struggles

 

The natives, the fans, the press and the talking heads are rightfully restless. The New York Giants are awful.

 

This is a three-win mess of a squad, a shell of the team that won Super Bowl XLVI with heart and toughness. There is no hope in sight. It's that bad. The Giants are about to miss the playoffs for the third straight year.

 

However, if you are blaming Tom Coughlin for this horrendous campaign, if you are calling for the decorated coach to be fired, I frankly feel sorry for you.

 

You've missed everything.

 

The problem with the 2014 New York Giants is they aren't any good. You don't need a combination of Sherlock Holmes and Mike Mayock to figure this one out. This installment of Big Blue just doesn't have the requisite talent to be competitive in the NFL. Bill Belichick couldn't win with this roster -- neither could Bill Walsh nor Vince Lombardi. So it's not hard to understand this team's struggles under Coughlin.

 

Tom Coughlin is arguably both a future Hall of Famer and the greatest coach in Giants history. No, I'm not forgetting Bill Parcells. And Tom Coughlin didn't forget how to coach.

 

New York is a dreadful 3-7. And in six of those seven defeats, the Giants have lost by double digits. The talent cannot match up. They aren't close.

 

Blame must be pointed in the direction of general manager Jerry Reese, who has been living off an epic 2007 draft class that instantly helped shaped a Super Bowl team (albeit one largely constructed by former GM Ernie Accorsi). Since that initial triumph, Reese has made many draft-day miscalculations. He's eschewed spending early picks on linebackers, creating a consistent problem. New York's offensive line is in shambles. The defense, currently ranked 31st, is arguably worse.

 

Back in August, I thought the Giants could win seven games this year -- and even that would've been underwhelming for this proud franchise. But then the team suffered a rash of key injuries, from Victor Cruz to Rashad Jennings to Walter Thurmond to Prince Amukamara to Jon Beason (though depending on the injury-prone Beason was a mistake by Reese in the first place). The Giants were banking on key offseason acquisition Geoff Schwartz to help the offensive line. He just came off of injured reserve this week, having missed every snap of the season thus far. Odell Beckham Jr. has sizzled of late, but a balky hamstring sidelined him throughout the summer and the first month of this season, hampering the rookie's development and the offense's explosiveness.

 

Of course, this is the National Football League -- every team encounters injuries, and the good ones overcome them. Just look at the Arizona Cardinals, who've endured a spate of key personnel losses to post the league's best record.

 

Unfortunately, the Giants have no depth. And in a related note of ineptitude, the Giants have no identity. They don't have a bone-crunching defense or a top-flight passing attack that can carry the squad through adversity. They don't have a run game or a pass defense, either.

The 2014 Giants don't have much of anything. Honestly, this group doesn't have one true area of strength.

How could anyone coach this team up?

 

As a two-time Super Bowl champion, Coughlin has earned the right to go out his way. I could see a scenario where Coughlin bows out gracefully, sick of continually missing the playoffs, with the Giants several players away from truly competing in 2015. I could see Coughlin wanting to get off the sinking ship to spend more time with his grandchildren.

 

But firing Coughlin is absurd.

 

The game has not passed him by. I don't believe for a second Coughlin has lost the locker room, either. Effort isn't the question. The Giants don't have the players.

 

This week, the Giants host the Cowboys on "Sunday Night Football." Dallas is likely to win. New York's issues will be laid bare on national television, just like they were on "Monday Night Football" at the beginning of this month.

 

Tom Coughlin's face will be red from anger and perhaps cold weather. Giants faithful will be hot and bothered watching it all play out.

But here's a word to the wise: If you're feeling the need to let loose a Bronx cheer Sunday evening, just make sure your venom is directed in the right place.

 

Fire Tom Coughlin?

Stop the insanity.

 

Follow Adam Schein on Twitter @AdamSchein.

[Treehugger]

[Sephiroth]

Its true.

 

The offense, defense, special teams, and personnel are all horrific, but none of that is Tom Coughlin's fault.

[gmenroc]

But he doesn't develop the players...blah, blah, blah...

 

If this thing gets blown up, Coughlin, Reese, Fewell, McAdoo all go together. McAdoo would be the guy who jumped onto a sinking ship.

 

I don't see a situation where Coughlin would go and Reese would stay. I think that Fewell is this year's fallguy.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

 

 

Its true.

 

The offense, defense, special teams, and personnel are all horrific, but none of that is Tom Coughlin's fault.

Please... did Cheerleader ghost write this apologia... Jesus H. Christ... forget about Canton... he should be Saint Tom of Giants Blue... give me a fucking break here. Everyone gets a bite of this shit sammich... including Saint Tom...

[Nas]

Its true.

 

The offense, defense, special teams, and personnel are all horrific, but none of that is Tom Coughlin's fault.

 

Exactly lol.

 

 

But he doesn't develop the players...blah, blah, blah...

 

If this thing gets blown up, Coughlin, Reese, Fewell, McAdoo all go together. McAdoo would be the guy who jumped onto a sinking ship.

 

I don't see a situation where Coughlin would go and Reese would stay. I think that Fewell is this year's fallguy.

 

Should have been 2011 fall guy.

[JMFP]

Charlie Casserly's thoughts on Reese and Coughlin.....

 

_______________________________________________________________________________

 

http://www.bigblueview.com/2014/12/9/7356019/charlie-casserly-ny-giants-should-keep-tom-coughlin-jerry-reese-john-mara

 

What is the answer to getting the New York Giants back on a winning path? To former NFL general manager Charlie Casserly, it's not firing head coach Tom Coughlin or general manager Jerry Reese. Rather, it is a thorough examination of how the organization has gotten to this point, missing the playoffs for three consecutive seasons.

"I still have confidence in Jerry Reese. I would retain him." said Casserly, who worked in the Washington Redskins front office from 1977-1999, and was general manager from 1989-99. He was GM of the Houston Texans from 2002-06.

Casserly said the Giants need to assess why so many personnel moves have failed in recent years.

"They have struggled recently with the successes of their personnel moves. This past draft should prove to be helpful though. If I where him [Mara] I would take a hard look at every facet of our scouting operation and he may have already done this before last year's draft," Casserly said. "Something has to be adjusted to improve their record in making personnel decisions. It may be in their scouting system, it could be some scouts need to be changed or Jerry may want to change is time management in how he divides his time between scouting and the management of the team. I had to go through the same thought process as I just outlined for Jerry."

Valentine's View: I think Casserly could be right when he says the Giants may have already adjusted their draft approach. They selected all team captains in the 2014 NFL Draft, and did not take players who seemed to be odd fits for what the coaching staff wanted. Odell Beckham may end up being the best player Reese has ever drafted, and the 2014 class as a whole could be his best. If changes need to be made, VP of Player Evaluation Marc Ross and some of his scouts could pay the price.

What about Coughlin? The head coach will be 69 next season. For Casserly, it's about whether or not Coughlin has the stomach to deal with whatever lies ahead.

"I would retain Tom Coughlin as head coach," Casserly said. "I think he is still doing a good job from what I can see from the outside. The players are still supporting him and he seems to have retained his intensity. I would have a discussion with him about the fact that if it takes a few more years to get back to a winning program, with no guarantee on how fast that will happen, do you want to go through this and how will this affect your legacy?"

Valentine's View: That, I think, is a fair stance on Coughlin. The Giants appear to have a good young core that could lead to a brighter future, but there are no guarantees. This might take a while. Is Coughlin up for the challenge?

Your thoughts, Giants fans?

[JMFP]

But he doesn't develop the players...blah, blah, blah...

 

If this thing gets blown up, Coughlin, Reese, Fewell, McAdoo all go together. McAdoo would be the guy who jumped onto a sinking ship.

 

I don't see a situation where Coughlin would go and Reese would stay. I think that Fewell is this year's fallguy.

 

Fewell deserves to go.

 

Tuck and Osi are gone, so those whipping boys can't be blamed any longer.......Moore is stuck on the bench until Kiwi gets injured. JPP is not the player he was in 2011.

 

To me, it's clear this is what needs to be fixed. I'd argue that the fix is already in the works on the offensive side. I think the training/condition program needs serious study. And as Casserly stated, they need to examine the drafting/scouting process.

[Sephiroth]

Look, I posted this in another thread (and flippantly here) but here's the deal:

 

If we fire Fewell and Quinn, who both admittedly need to go, the Giants will be saying this: in the past 12 months, the offense, defense, and special teams aren't good enough. However, none of that is Coughlin's fault. Also, we had four years (2008-2012) of shit show drafting and a free agent class this year with more busts than players, but none of that is Reese's fault.

 

Sorry, but I just don't believe that.

[BlueInCanada]

Look, I posted this in another thread (and flippantly here) but here's the deal:

 

If we fire Fewell and Quinn, who both admittedly need to go, the Giants will be saying this: in the past 12 months, the offense, defense, and special teams aren't good enough. However, none of that is Coughlin's fault. Also, we had four years (2008-2012) of shit show drafting and a free agent class this year with more busts than players, but none of that is Reese's fault.

 

Sorry, but I just don't believe that.

 

What it says to me is;

 

Hey were not the Redskins, we are going to be throwing the DC, special teams coach, a bunch of assistant coaches, the strength and condition staff out the door, along with a roster turnover and maybe even firing the head of scouting.

 

The last thing any new HC or GM needs is to come into a team during chaos and no stability what so ever, that's not how this organization has or ever will be run, once again they arnt the Redskins who get to drown any coach they bring in, in nothing but constant coach and roster turnover. What the team does need is stability until the time comes when Coughlin is "retired" and JR tires to prove himself, no blame is passed but the Giant's can continue to build a team suitable for the next HC to come in, much like the team EA built for Coughlin and Eli to come in and lead.

[fringe]

^{I think when Teflon Tom goes this year (hopefully) a lot will come out concerning what the hell he's been doing these past few years.}

[fishgutmartyr]

 

What it says to me is;

 

Hey were not the Redskins, we are going to be throwing the DC, special teams coach, a bunch of assistant coaches, the strength and condition staff out the door, along with a roster turnover and maybe even firing the head of scouting.

 

The last thing any new HC or GM needs is to come into a team during chaos and no stability what so ever, that's not how this organization has or ever will be run, once again they arnt the Redskins who get to drown any coach they bring in, in nothing but constant coach and roster turnover. What the team does need is stability until the time comes when Coughlin is "retired" and JR tires to prove himself, no blame is passed but the Giant's can continue to build a team suitable for the next HC to come in, much like the team EA built for Coughlin and Eli to come in and lead.

 

http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/new-york-giants/roster/2003

 

Look at this roster. It contains the following: an overrated, often injured TE, a wide receiver tandem that managed to go an entire season without a touchdown in 2004, a running back on the brink of losing his career because of fumbling problems, a HOF'er drafted before Accorsi, and a couple of good draft picks in Diehl and Umenyiora, who hadn't done much of anything to that point. A severly injured Rich Seubert. A left tackle who was already in decline. Keith Hamilton in his last year of freedom, literally. Out of 53 players, those are the ones even worth mentioning, and a good chunk of those were pretty freaking flawed.

 

Our oline was a joke, our linebackers not much better than the ones we have now, and the defensive backfield couldn't buy an interception (they kept dropping their money). Kerry Collins had mobility that made Eli look like Michael Vick in his prime.

 

The team that Accorsi "built for Coughlin and Eli to lead" was 2 years away from even seeing a playoff loss, and 4 years from a SB. Accorsi gets credit for O'Hara, MacKenzie, Pierce--but what about flops like Carlos Emmons, Barrett Green, and Wayne Garrett? Norman Hand? How close did he get to fucking us for years with the Arrington signing? What about the legend that was Kenny Holmes? What about all the years we didn't sign anyone because we were so cap-fucked?

 

Want to talk drafts? He had 11 picks in 2003. 11. We kept Umenyiora, Diehl, Tyree, and Shiancoe for any length of time. We wasted Shiancoe. We cut Keven Walter. So we could hold on to Willie Ponder, I guess.

 

How long were we stuck with William Joseph, Tim Carter, Gerris Wilkinson, Sinorice Moss, Shaun Williams, the two Wills, and a bunch of others hoping we'd get something, anything out of them? Fucking Ron Dayne!? Accorsi bombed out on 4 first rounders on this list alone (Dayne, Williams, Allen, Joseph)--and you guys are putting him on a pedestal while crucifying Reese for Sintim, Austin and some lousy mid-round picks? Or do we then switch the argument to Reese being Accorsi's head of scouting, without giving Reese some credit for the 2004-2005 drafts?

 

Reese has had some shit luck, and made some bad picks. But that doesn't turn Accorsi into a genius.

 

(I'm sorry, BiC, I don't mean to take it out on your post, but this drives me crazy. Sometimes I think I live in a completely different reality. Even worse, I think I missed the point of your post. I think you hit a trigger with that, lol.)

 

While I'm thinking of it, I wish you guys would stop bunching the 2008 draft with 2009-2012. That was a very good draft with some really lousy knees. The talent was there--it just couldn't stay on the field.

[RandolphScott]

Wayne Garrett played baseball in the 70's for the Mets, Fish. I think you're thinking of someone else. I hope?

[RandolphScott]

The best free agent signing outside of the 2005 class of McKenzie, Pierce and Burress was Fred Robbins.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

 

http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/new-york-giants/roster/2003

 

Look at this roster. It contains the following: an overrated, often injured TE, a wide receiver tandem that managed to go an entire season without a touchdown in 2004, a running back on the brink of losing his career because of fumbling problems, a HOF'er drafted before Accorsi, and a couple of good draft picks in Diehl and Umenyiora, who hadn't done much of anything to that point. A severly injured Rich Seubert. A left tackle who was already in decline. Keith Hamilton in his last year of freedom, literally. Out of 53 players, those are the ones even worth mentioning, and a good chunk of those were pretty freaking flawed.

 

Our oline was a joke, our linebackers not much better than the ones we have now, and the defensive backfield couldn't buy an interception (they kept dropping their money). Kerry Collins had mobility that made Eli look like Michael Vick in his prime.

 

The team that Accorsi "built for Coughlin and Eli to lead" was 2 years away from even seeing a playoff loss, and 4 years from a SB. Accorsi gets credit for O'Hara, MacKenzie, Pierce--but what about flops like Carlos Emmons, Barrett Green, and Wayne Garrett? Norman Hand? How close did he get to fucking us for years with the Arrington signing? What about the legend that was Kenny Holmes? What about all the years we didn't sign anyone because we were so cap-fucked?

 

Want to talk drafts? He had 11 picks in 2003. 11. We kept Umenyiora, Diehl, Tyree, and Shiancoe for any length of time. We wasted Shiancoe. We cut Keven Walter. So we could hold on to Willie Ponder, I guess.

 

How long were we stuck with William Joseph, Tim Carter, Gerris Wilkinson, Sinorice Moss, Shaun Williams, the two Wills, and a bunch of others hoping we'd get something, anything out of them? Fucking Ron Dayne!? Accorsi bombed out on 4 first rounders on this list alone (Dayne, Williams, Allen, Joseph)--and you guys are putting him on a pedestal while crucifying Reese for Sintim, Austin and some lousy mid-round picks? Or do we then switch the argument to Reese being Accorsi's head of scouting, without giving Reese some credit for the 2004-2005 drafts?

 

Reese has had some shit luck, and made some bad picks. But that doesn't turn Accorsi into a genius.

 

(I'm sorry, BiC, I don't mean to take it out on your post, but this drives me crazy. Sometimes I think I live in a completely different reality. Even worse, I think I missed the point of your post. I think you hit a trigger with that, lol.)

 

While I'm thinking of it, I wish you guys would stop bunching the 2008 draft with 2009-2012. That was a very good draft with some really lousy knees. The talent was there--it just couldn't stay on the field.

Thank you Sir... from One Old Giants Fan to another... This stuff goes in cycles...when you are good everyone loves you...you're the next genius...when everything falls apart... you were just lucky those great years...the one before you was a demigod who dropped out of Heaven...

[Nas]

 

http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/new-york-giants/roster/2003

 

Look at this roster. It contains the following: an overrated, often injured TE, a wide receiver tandem that managed to go an entire season without a touchdown in 2004, a running back on the brink of losing his career because of fumbling problems, a HOF'er drafted before Accorsi, and a couple of good draft picks in Diehl and Umenyiora, who hadn't done much of anything to that point. A severly injured Rich Seubert. A left tackle who was already in decline. Keith Hamilton in his last year of freedom, literally. Out of 53 players, those are the ones even worth mentioning, and a good chunk of those were pretty freaking flawed.

 

Our oline was a joke, our linebackers not much better than the ones we have now, and the defensive backfield couldn't buy an interception (they kept dropping their money). Kerry Collins had mobility that made Eli look like Michael Vick in his prime.

 

The team that Accorsi "built for Coughlin and Eli to lead" was 2 years away from even seeing a playoff loss, and 4 years from a SB. Accorsi gets credit for O'Hara, MacKenzie, Pierce--but what about flops like Carlos Emmons, Barrett Green, and Wayne Garrett? Norman Hand? How close did he get to fucking us for years with the Arrington signing? What about the legend that was Kenny Holmes? What about all the years we didn't sign anyone because we were so cap-fucked?

 

Want to talk drafts? He had 11 picks in 2003. 11. We kept Umenyiora, Diehl, Tyree, and Shiancoe for any length of time. We wasted Shiancoe. We cut Keven Walter. So we could hold on to Willie Ponder, I guess.

 

How long were we stuck with William Joseph, Tim Carter, Gerris Wilkinson, Sinorice Moss, Shaun Williams, the two Wills, and a bunch of others hoping we'd get something, anything out of them? Fucking Ron Dayne!? Accorsi bombed out on 4 first rounders on this list alone (Dayne, Williams, Allen, Joseph)--and you guys are putting him on a pedestal while crucifying Reese for Sintim, Austin and some lousy mid-round picks? Or do we then switch the argument to Reese being Accorsi's head of scouting, without giving Reese some credit for the 2004-2005 drafts?

 

Reese has had some shit luck, and made some bad picks. But that doesn't turn Accorsi into a genius.

 

(I'm sorry, BiC, I don't mean to take it out on your post, but this drives me crazy. Sometimes I think I live in a completely different reality. Even worse, I think I missed the point of your post. I think you hit a trigger with that, lol.)

 

While I'm thinking of it, I wish you guys would stop bunching the 2008 draft with 2009-2012. That was a very good draft with some really lousy knees. The talent was there--it just couldn't stay on the field.

 

Thank you Sir... from One Old Giants Fan to another... This stuff goes in cycles...when you are good everyone loves you...you're the next genius...when everything falls apart... you were just lucky those great years...the one before you was a demigod who dropped out of Heaven...

 

Thanks old guys

[Bigblue25]

Wayne Garrett played baseball in the 70's for the Mets, Fish. I think you're thinking of someone else. I hope?

Nick Greisen?

[JMFP]

 

http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/new-york-giants/roster/2003

 

Look at this roster. It contains the following: an overrated, often injured TE, a wide receiver tandem that managed to go an entire season without a touchdown in 2004, a running back on the brink of losing his career because of fumbling problems, a HOF'er drafted before Accorsi, and a couple of good draft picks in Diehl and Umenyiora, who hadn't done much of anything to that point. A severly injured Rich Seubert. A left tackle who was already in decline. Keith Hamilton in his last year of freedom, literally. Out of 53 players, those are the ones even worth mentioning, and a good chunk of those were pretty freaking flawed.

 

Our oline was a joke, our linebackers not much better than the ones we have now, and the defensive backfield couldn't buy an interception (they kept dropping their money). Kerry Collins had mobility that made Eli look like Michael Vick in his prime.

 

The team that Accorsi "built for Coughlin and Eli to lead" was 2 years away from even seeing a playoff loss, and 4 years from a SB. Accorsi gets credit for O'Hara, MacKenzie, Pierce--but what about flops like Carlos Emmons, Barrett Green, and Wayne Garrett? Norman Hand? How close did he get to fucking us for years with the Arrington signing? What about the legend that was Kenny Holmes? What about all the years we didn't sign anyone because we were so cap-fucked?

 

Want to talk drafts? He had 11 picks in 2003. 11. We kept Umenyiora, Diehl, Tyree, and Shiancoe for any length of time. We wasted Shiancoe. We cut Keven Walter. So we could hold on to Willie Ponder, I guess.

 

How long were we stuck with William Joseph, Tim Carter, Gerris Wilkinson, Sinorice Moss, Shaun Williams, the two Wills, and a bunch of others hoping we'd get something, anything out of them? Fucking Ron Dayne!? Accorsi bombed out on 4 first rounders on this list alone (Dayne, Williams, Allen, Joseph)--and you guys are putting him on a pedestal while crucifying Reese for Sintim, Austin and some lousy mid-round picks? Or do we then switch the argument to Reese being Accorsi's head of scouting, without giving Reese some credit for the 2004-2005 drafts?

 

Reese has had some shit luck, and made some bad picks. But that doesn't turn Accorsi into a genius.

 

(I'm sorry, BiC, I don't mean to take it out on your post, but this drives me crazy. Sometimes I think I live in a completely different reality. Even worse, I think I missed the point of your post. I think you hit a trigger with that, lol.)

 

While I'm thinking of it, I wish you guys would stop bunching the 2008 draft with 2009-2012. That was a very good draft with some really lousy knees. The talent was there--it just couldn't stay on the field.

 

 

Fair points, but Accorsi also hired Coughlin, and swung the draft day trade for Eli Manning, who in turn became the best Giants QB of all time.

 

In that same 2004 draft, Accorsi gets Chris Snee, Torbor, Wilson, and Derrick Ward.

 

One year later 2005, maybe the best case of drafting you could ask for.....without a 1st rounder, and only 4 picks, Accorsi gets Webster, Tuck and Jacobs.

 

2006, they drafted Kiwanuka, who is STILL starting on the team.....I'd blame Reese for that, not Accorsi. Cofield was a solid pickup in the 4th.

 

 

Yeah, I get it, Accorsi had his share of misses......but when he turned the team over to Reese in 2007, he had built:

 

1) An excellent defensive line

2) A very solid offensive line

3) A coach who will likely be heading to Canton

4) The best QB in Giants history

5) A battering ram running back

6) A pro-Bowl receiver (Plax) and the best Giants receiver of all time (Toomer)

 

I'll credit Reese with a strong 2007 draft that rounded out the roster, but that 2007 team was an Ernie Accorsi production, from the coach, to the QB, to the D-Line, and the O-Line. Even in 2011, when clear flags were being raised, the Giants managed to get another Championship from a roster with Ernie's players still forming their veteran core.

 

Unlike Accorsi, Reese has never had to deal with the 2 biggest priorities of any GM - finding a coach and a QB. For 8 straight seasons, he's had the luxury of knowing who is going to coach the team, and who is going to lead the offense. That's a luxury that most every other GM in the NFL would have loved to have.

 

I look at what Reese inherited, and where the team is now, and by that measure, Accorsi did a better job as GM. That doesn't mean I want Reese fired. But I don't think Reese's mistakes should be placed at the feet of a Head Coach who has twice proven that he win a championship with the right players.

 

Contrast Coughlin with Harbaugh...... does anyone in the NFL feel that the 49ers aren't loaded on paper?......and yet Harbaugh hasn't been able to beat inferior opponents with superior players. In 2007, Coughlin's guys managed to beat the Cowboys, Packers, and undefeated Patriots, in that order. IN 2011, they travelled to SF and beat Harbaugh's team in his own house....prior to that, they had beaten a Packers team that looked like the most dangerous team in the NFL. And of course, they finished it off with beating Belichick and Brady for the second time.

 

Great coaches - like Coughlin - are a rare breed.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

 

 

Thanks old guys

:big F-U:

 

 

[fishgutmartyr]

Wayne Garrett played baseball in the 70's for the Mets, Fish. I think you're thinking of someone else. I hope?

lol, you're right. I was thinking Barry Stokes. I'm not even sure how I got to Wayne there--maybe a spark from a neuron hit a piece of aluminum up there.

[Storm]

I thought that Will Allen and Shaun Williams were at least serviceable. We got starts out of them and it's not like they were busts.

[fishgutmartyr]

 

 

Fair points, but Accorsi also hired Coughlin, and swung the draft day trade for Eli Manning, who in turn became the best Giants QB of all time.

 

In that same 2004 draft, Accorsi gets Chris Snee, Torbor, Wilson, and Derrick Ward.

 

One year later 2005, maybe the best case of drafting you could ask for.....without a 1st rounder, and only 4 picks, Accorsi gets Webster, Tuck and Jacobs.

 

2006, they drafted Kiwanuka, who is STILL starting on the team.....I'd blame Reese for that, not Accorsi. Cofield was a solid pickup in the 4th.

 

 

Ward was poached off of the Jets practice squad. Not part of the draft, just like Cruz.

 

I've been hearing all season that Reese's drafts were bad because no one is left from some of his drafts--even if the reason was that they went to another team after their rookie contract was up--using that same "logic," you shouldn't include Wilson or Torbor. Or Cofield. I think it's a stupid argument, because obviously it's a good pick if somebody's willing to play for the player, but I don't make the rules.

 

I could easily argue that Kiwi was a botched pick--I'll leave it to you to decide whether he was a full time sub/guy who had to play out of position because he couldn't break into the line. We traded our position that year to Pittsburgh, who immediately selected Santonio Holmes. We took the extra pick, packaged it with our 2nd rounder, and got Sinorice Moss. Slick.

 

 

Yeah, I get it, Accorsi had his share of misses......but when he turned the team over to Reese in 2007, he had built:

 

1) An excellent defensive line

2) A very solid offensive line

3) A coach who will likely be heading to Canton

4) The best QB in Giants history

5) A battering ram running back

6) A pro-Bowl receiver (Plax) and the best Giants receiver of all time (Toomer)

 

I'll credit Reese with a strong 2007 draft that rounded out the roster, but that 2007 team was an Ernie Accorsi production, from the coach, to the QB, to the D-Line, and the O-Line. Even in 2011, when clear flags were being raised, the Giants managed to get another Championship from a roster with Ernie's players still forming their veteran core.

 

Unlike Accorsi, Reese has never had to deal with the 2 biggest priorities of any GM - finding a coach and a QB. For 8 straight seasons, he's had the luxury of knowing who is going to coach the team, and who is going to lead the offense. That's a luxury that most every other GM in the NFL would have loved to have.

 

 

From everything I've heard, Coughlin was Mara's guy, not Accorsi's. Yes, Eli was Ernie's guy.

 

The defensive line? You mean the one with the Hall of Famer that George Young drafted? Was this George Young's team too?

 

If Accorsi was still around in 2007, Pettigout would have been LT, not Diehl, and there wouldn't have been room for Seubert.

 

Wait--Toomer the best Giant's receiver of all time!? Seriously? Longest career of all time? Sure. Most yards in team history? Definitely. Best? No way. I would take Nicks, Smith, Cruz, OBJ, and Del Shofner over him. Hell, I'd take Burress, and I despise that moron.

 

 

 

I look at what Reese inherited, and where the team is now, and by that measure, Accorsi did a better job as GM. That doesn't mean I want Reese fired. But I don't think Reese's mistakes should be placed at the feet of a Head Coach who has twice proven that he win a championship with the right players.

 

Contrast Coughlin with Harbaugh...... does anyone in the NFL feel that the 49ers aren't loaded on paper?......and yet Harbaugh hasn't been able to beat inferior opponents with superior players. In 2007, Coughlin's guys managed to beat the Cowboys, Packers, and undefeated Patriots, in that order. IN 2011, they travelled to SF and beat Harbaugh's team in his own house....prior to that, they had beaten a Packers team that looked like the most dangerous team in the NFL. And of course, they finished it off with beating Belichick and Brady for the second time.

 

Great coaches - like Coughlin - are a rare breed.

 

Never said I wanted Coughlin gone--I'm just tired of the Accorsi mythology.

[Sephiroth]

 

 

Fair points, but Accorsi also hired Coughlin, and swung the draft day trade for Eli Manning, who in turn became the best Giants QB of all time.

 

In that same 2004 draft, Accorsi gets Chris Snee, Torbor, Wilson, and Derrick Ward.

 

One year later 2005, maybe the best case of drafting you could ask for.....without a 1st rounder, and only 4 picks, Accorsi gets Webster, Tuck and Jacobs.

 

2006, they drafted Kiwanuka, who is STILL starting on the team.....I'd blame Reese for that, not Accorsi. Cofield was a solid pickup in the 4th.

 

 

Yeah, I get it, Accorsi had his share of misses......but when he turned the team over to Reese in 2007, he had built:

 

1) An excellent defensive line

2) A very solid offensive line

3) A coach who will likely be heading to Canton

4) The best QB in Giants history

5) A battering ram running back

6) A pro-Bowl receiver (Plax) and the best Giants receiver of all time (Toomer)

 

I'll credit Reese with a strong 2007 draft that rounded out the roster, but that 2007 team was an Ernie Accorsi production, from the coach, to the QB, to the D-Line, and the O-Line. Even in 2011, when clear flags were being raised, the Giants managed to get another Championship from a roster with Ernie's players still forming their veteran core.

 

Unlike Accorsi, Reese has never had to deal with the 2 biggest priorities of any GM - finding a coach and a QB. For 8 straight seasons, he's had the luxury of knowing who is going to coach the team, and who is going to lead the offense. That's a luxury that most every other GM in the NFL would have loved to have.

 

I look at what Reese inherited, and where the team is now, and by that measure, Accorsi did a better job as GM. That doesn't mean I want Reese fired. But I don't think Reese's mistakes should be placed at the feet of a Head Coach who has twice proven that he win a championship with the right players.

 

Contrast Coughlin with Harbaugh...... does anyone in the NFL feel that the 49ers aren't loaded on paper?......and yet Harbaugh hasn't been able to beat inferior opponents with superior players. In 2007, Coughlin's guys managed to beat the Cowboys, Packers, and undefeated Patriots, in that order. IN 2011, they travelled to SF and beat Harbaugh's team in his own house....prior to that, they had beaten a Packers team that looked like the most dangerous team in the NFL. And of course, they finished it off with beating Belichick and Brady for the second time.

 

Great coaches - like Coughlin - are a rare breed.

 

Agreed.

 

When Reese took over, you had a franchise QB in place, one of the greatest O-lines ever assembled on the club, difference-makers like Antonio Pierce and Osi Umenyiora, and a very good receiver in Plax Burress. Those are all players who produced over multiple seasons; players the team could build around... and that's not even counting the solid guys like Corey Webster, Derrick Ward, etc.

 

Reese? Right now he's gotten us two solid-to-good corners, a fantastic slot WR, another receiver who looks like the real deal, a tenacious running back for about six years, and... that's about it. Even his big "hits" (JPP and Nicks) were more flashes in the pan than franchise players. Not just that, but many of those Accorsi guys still haven't been replaced. Granted, its tough to replace a Strahan, but who's taken over for Pierce? For Osi? What member of the O-line is better than the guy he replaced? These aren't guys you build around.

 

Yeah, we had some injuries. Do you know who else had injuries? Every team in the league. The Colts are the league's most injured team every year and they still seem to always make the playoffs... Seattle and the Cowboys both have more players on IR this year than the Giants, and they're both competitive.

 

JR needs to go. By almost any metric, he's terrible.

[Storm]

I'm pretty sure the Giants lead the league in players on IR, or at least starter-games-missed because of injury or IR.

[fishgutmartyr]

I'm pretty sure the Giants lead the league in players on IR, or at least starter-games-missed because of injury or IR.

 

That's true. We do lead the league in IR, and with the exception of DRC (injured), Walton, and Jerry, it reads like this year's FA class; with a few crucial additions.

 

We probably do lead the league in starter-games-missed, but I'm not sure. If we do, it would be the second year running.

 

 

As for Shawn Williams and Will Allen: Williams spent more time on IR than on the field--and never really got it going. When he was relatively healthy, he'd get starts--but they were William Joseph starts, if you know what I mean.

 

Will Allen got injured a lot, but was better at staying on the field. To be fair, he was decent in coverage, but couldn't get an INT at gun-point. He'd drop passes that seemed to have been thrown to him.