Let the Giants Adventures at LB Begin, 2016

[Tempest]

2007 and 2011 seasons... we had an epic, EPIC defensive line and pass rush, one which will probably be unrealistic to completely mimic consistently in the future. We can't count on this again.

 

Hence, we need to build a defense where we still try for the pass rush, but DON'T neglect everything else.

 

Less, are we going to ignore those SB winners who had good LBs, but only above average pass rushes, and won the SB? There's not a simple correlation between one or the other. The sum of the parts of the ENTIRE defense needs to be good. We were fortunate to have a great pass rush stack in 2007 and 2011 that the sum of the defense was great, but again, do not count on this in the future.

 

The Giants have once again invested heavily in the defensive line and pass rushers on the defensive line. They are counting on this. They are not neglecting everything else even if you may think so. Giants are going to continue to use their blueprint for victory because it does work.

 

We have linebackers, they simply aren't the best in the league and you have to go back in history over a decade when they were the best in the NFL. We have won super bowls with average linebackers.

[Tempest]

 

Antonio Pierce, MLB -- 103 tackles, 1 sack, 1 interception, 8 passes defensed, 1 forced fumble

Mathias Kiwanuka, OLB -- 46 tackles, 4.5 sacks, 4 passes defensed, 1 forced fumble

Kawika Mitchell, OLB -- 76 tackles, 3.5 sacks, 1 interception, 4 passes defensed, 2 forced fumbles

Reggie Torbor, OLB -- 39 tackles, 1 sack, 1 pass defensed

-------------

Mathias Kiwanuka, OLB -- 85 tackles, 3.5 sacks, 1 interception, 2 passes defensed, 1 forced fumble

Michael Boley, OLB -- 94 tackles, 1 sack, 3 passes defensed, 1 forced fumble

Jacquian Williams, OLB -- 71 tackles, 1 sacks, 5 passes defensed, 1 forced fumble

Chase Blackburn, MLB (5 games) -- 28 tackles, 1 interception, 2 passes defensed

Greg Jones, MLB -- 27 tackles

---------

2007 was definitely better because Antonio Pierce is better than anyone we've had since Jesse Armstead. And certainly better than anyone since. But 2011 was way better than anyone since and better than the current bunch.

And Vendetta is right. Tuck, JPP with 10 fingers and a good back, and the rest were a one of that will not be repeated. Plus the game has changed. It's proven now that a good QB can neutralize a good rush. You need LB's

 

 

There goes a pro bowl list of linebackers right there

[mastershake]

 

The Giants have once again invested heavily in the defensive line and pass rushers on the defensive line. They are counting on this. They are not neglecting everything else even if you may think so. Giants are going to continue to use their blueprint for victory because it does work.

 

We have linebackers, they simply aren't the best in the league and you have to go back in history over a decade when they were the best in the NFL. We have won super bowls with average linebackers.

 

Vernon and JPP + 'can opener hand' is not the same as Tuck, Osi, Strahan (and some others in support). Maybe Odigizuwa and/or Romeo Okara develop into something. We'll see; but I wouldn't count on it this season.

 

Just because they won two SB with average LBers doesn't mean that's the template to replicate for each upcoming season. It's still a weakness. I also don't think we have average LBers now. We have backups.

 

Also, I'd remind you that, realistically, Wes Welker won us the last SB.

[fringe]

 

There goes a pro bowl list of linebackers right there

Compared to lately, 2007 is HOF caliber!

[Tempest]

 

Vernon and JPP + 'can opener hand' is not the same as Tuck, Osi, Strahan (and some others in support). Maybe Odigizuwa and/or Romeo Okara develop into something. We'll see; but I wouldn't count on it this season.

 

Just because they won two SB with average LBers doesn't mean that's the template to replicate for each upcoming season. It's still a weakness. I also don't think we have average LBers now. We have backups.

 

Also, I'd remind you that, realistically, Wes Welker won us the last SB.

 

I think you should start emailing all this great info to Jerry Reese. Positive you just like arguing for the sake of it because I think you are the only person who thinks Wes Welker won us the last SB.

 

Where's Ed?

 

[Tempest]

Compared to lately, 2007 is HOF caliber!

 

Ya never know. We didn't think a lot about them back then either.

[Iceman_NYG]

Our LBers might not be earth shattering, OL pulverizing, offense destroying demigods - but I think they are more than capable of holding their own if the DL and the CBs on whom the majority of the investments have been made do their job. The LB core is quite capable. The reason we bitches cry is because there is no superstar there. Im sure Spags knows what he is doing - as long as he can keep the unit cohesive and injury free. There is a Kuechly hiding in there somewhere Im sure.

[Tempest]

Our LBers might not be earth shattering, OL pulverizing, offense destroying demigods - but I think they are more than capable of holding their own if the DL and the CBs on whom the majority of the investments have been made do their job. The LB core is quite capable. The reason we bitches cry is because there is no superstar there. Im sure Spags knows what he is doing - as long as he can keep the unit cohesive and injury free. There is a Kuechly hiding in there somewhere Im sure.

 

That is the Jerry Reese daily prayer right there

 

[Storm]

Guys, there is at least reason for optimism. The Giants defense will almost certainly be better than last season. They really didn't lose any key players aside from Robert Ayers, who I'm no convinced is anything but a specialized 1 or 2 down pass rusher who benefited and looked good from a lack of a JPP and then benefited from the addition of JPP by less attention and focus of the OLine being put on him. Amukamara wasn't much of a loss and they more than replaced him.

 

You got a healthy Hankins coming back. The defensive line is much stronger all around, when you consider the addition of Damon Harrison and the (hopefully) continued progress of Odiggy. The linebacker position didn't get any worse, so there is at least that. I foresee the D being in the top half of the league this year, provided I'm wrong about Steve Spagnuolo's ability scheme because if anyone, I believe he is the defense's weakest link.

[mastershake]

 

I think you should start emailing all this great info to Jerry Reese. Positive you just like arguing for the sake of it because I think you are the only person who thinks Wes Welker won us the last SB.

 

Where's Ed?

 

 

Are Vernon and "Can opener hand JPP" the same as Strahan, Tuck, and Osi?

[mastershake]

Guys, there is at least reason for optimism. The Giants defense will almost certainly be better than last season. They really didn't lose any key players aside from Robert Ayers, who I'm no convinced is anything but a specialized 1 or 2 down pass rusher who benefited and looked good from a lack of a JPP and then benefited from the addition of JPP by less attention and focus of the OLine being put on him. Amukamara wasn't much of a loss and they more than replaced him.

 

You got a healthy Hankins coming back. The defensive line is much stronger all around, when you consider the addition of Damon Harrison and the (hopefully) continued progress of Odiggy. The linebacker position didn't get any worse, so there is at least that. I foresee the D being in the top half of the league this year, provided I'm wrong about Steve Spagnuolo's ability scheme because if anyone, I believe he is the defense's weakest link.

 

That's because there wasn't much room for it to get worse in the first place

[Storm]

 

That's because there wasn't much room for it to get worse in the first place

 

Even last year it was better than it had been in been in the previous several years...

[BlueInCanada]

Guys, there is at least reason for optimism. The Giants defense will almost certainly be better than last season. They really didn't lose any key players aside from Robert Ayers, who I'm no convinced is anything but a specialized 1 or 2 down pass rusher who benefited and looked good from a lack of a JPP and then benefited from the addition of JPP by less attention and focus of the OLine being put on him. Amukamara wasn't much of a loss and they more than replaced him.

 

You got a healthy Hankins coming back. The defensive line is much stronger all around, when you consider the addition of Damon Harrison and the (hopefully) continued progress of Odiggy. The linebacker position didn't get any worse, so there is at least that. I foresee the D being in the top half of the league this year, provided I'm wrong about Steve Spagnuolo's ability scheme because if anyone, I believe he is the defense's weakest link.

 

That's my biggest issue with the defense at the moment, we have positions that are much improved from last season, but that isnt hard when last season every position was bottom of the league.

 

But we still have Steve "Fuck change" SpagnolioolioliolioliOH at the helm, one of the worst if not THE worst defensive coordinators at making any on the fly adjustments in the NFL.

 

This guy will go to the grave with his "exotic" packages then trying to adapt to another teams gameplan, and I still don't think he did anything brilliant by putting all the best D-line players on the field at the same time and rushing acouple LBs. I mean you have a HoF DE, and two others who are Pro-bowl players, it doesn't take a LeBeau to figure out to put them on the field at the same time.

 

I hope I'm wrong but I still say signing Spags was one of the biggest blunders that JR/FO could pull off, I hope I'm wrong.

[mastershake]

 

That's my biggest issue with the defense at the moment, we have positions that are much improved from last season, but that isnt hard when last season every position was bottom of the league.

 

But we still have Steve "Fuck change" SpagnolioolioliolioliOH at the helm, one of the worst if not THE worst defensive coordinators at making any on the fly adjustments in the NFL.

 

This guy will go to the grave with his "exotic" packages then trying to adapt to another teams gameplan, and I still don't think he did anything brilliant by putting all the best D-line players on the field at the same time and rushing acouple LBs. I mean you have a HoF DE, and two others who are Pro-bowl players, it doesn't take a LeBeau to figure out to put them on the field at the same time.

 

I hope I'm wrong but I still say signing Spags was one of the biggest blunders that JR/FO could pull off, I hope I'm wrong.

 

I think we'll go from a #31-32 ranked defense to at best #20-25. Functional? Yes, but not playoff or super bowl caliber.

[BlueInCanada]

 

I think we'll go from a #31-32 ranked defense to at best #20-25. Functional? Yes, but not playoff or super bowl caliber.

 

I've said it I dont think the Gints are making the playoffs this year, I want them too but I just dont see it happening outside of a '07 repeat.

 

What do I want to see this year? Improvement, show me that the moves JR has made and the new coaches and players are working towards another playoff push.

 

I want to see a more competitive team that can at least run with the rest of the league, show me a defense that doesn't buckle when an opposing QB looks their way, show me an offense that can pick up a first down when it needs to the most.

 

I think the Giants make it back for one more playoff push before Eli is done, but it's going to take another season or two of building to get there.

[mastershake]

 

I've said it I dont think the Gints are making the playoffs this year, I want them too but I just dont see it happening outside of a '07 repeat.

 

What do I want to see this year? Improvement, show me that the moves JR has made and the new coaches and players are working towards another playoff push.

 

I want to see a more competitive team that can at least run with the rest of the league, show me a defense that doesn't buckle when an opposing QB looks their way, show me an offense that can pick up a first down when it needs to the most.

 

I think the Giants make it back for one more playoff push before Eli is done, but it's going to take another season or two of building to get there.

I agree with most of this. I just want a tolerable team this year. 8-8 seems likely, then shoot for 10-11 wins next year.

[fringe]

 

Ya never know. We didn't think a lot about them back then either.

I'm talking about from 2012-15. I don't have much optimism for this year's batch either. I would love to see us over compensate on LB's one year and see what happens...

[BlueInCanada]

I'm talking about from 2012-15. I don't have much optimism for this year's batch either. I would love to see us over compensate on LB's one year and see what happens...

 

See that will be the year they draft a LB in the first round and sign the two highest paid LBs in FA.

 

But JR lets Eli go and OBJ gets signed by the Cowboys.

[fringe]

 

See that will be the year they draft a LB in the first round and sign the two highest paid LBs in FA.

 

But JR lets Eli go and OBJ gets signed by the Cowboys.

never happen. I'd settle for 1 and 1.

[Tempest]

I'm talking about from 2012-15. I don't have much optimism for this year's batch either. I would love to see us over compensate on LB's one year and see what happens...

 

It was 2011 and the Giants drafted Greg Jones and Jacquian Williams then brought in Mark Herzlich and Spencer Paysinger after the draft.

 

I'll never forget this group, how do you miss four times in one draft? Jerry Reese would point out Mark Herzlich was a hit and Paysinger is still in the NFL.

 

We are that bad at recognizing talent at the linebacker position.

[fringe]

 

It was 2011 and the Giants drafted Greg Jones and Jacquian Williams then brought in Mark Herzlich and Spencer Paysinger after the draft.

 

I'll never forget this group, how do you miss four times in one draft? Jerry Reese would point out Mark Herzlich was a hit and Paysinger is still in the NFL.

 

We are that bad at recognizing talent at the linebacker position.

We or he? We got LT , Carl Banks, Harry Cardon, Jesse Armstead,Kelly, Pepper, Reasons etc...

[Tempest]

We or he? We got LT , Carl Banks, Harry Cardon, Jesse Armstead,Kelly, Pepper, Reasons etc...

 

Reagan was President, then there was a Bush followed by a Clinton...

 

Those players were drafted a very long time ago. Jessie Armstead retired 13 years ago. We might still have those same scouts out there looking at players and I doubt that. A long time ago we were good at finding Linebackers and we ran a 3-4 defense. Now we run a 4-3 and we're good at finding Defensive Ends and better at finding Wide Receivers.

[fringe]

You're being contrary. There was a legacy of fine LBs because the bar was set high. Now you can't even limbo under that bar. 3-4, 4-3 my ass, there still more than 25% of your defense and you need talented guys there. If the talent scouts aren't doing their job, they should be gone. And so should the guy who employs them.

[Tempest]

You're being contrary. There was a legacy of fine LBs because the bar was set high. Now you can't even limbo under that bar. 3-4, 4-3 my ass, there still more than 25% of your defense and you need talented guys there. If the talent scouts aren't doing their job, they should be gone. And so should the guy who employs them.

 

Are they more than 25% of the Giants defense now? If they are its marginal.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/2015-snap-counts.htm

 

I really don't understand why the team has failed consistently to find a MLB or the reason for the lack of emphasis to be honest.

 

This was Linebacker University at one point, and now it is an elementary school with our current linebackers looking at pictures of those who came before them. I think the link has been broken for a very long time by NFL standards.

[fringe]

 

Are they more than 25% of the Giants defense now? If they are its marginal.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/2015-snap-counts.htm

 

I really don't understand why the team has failed consistently to find a MLB or the reason for the lack of emphasis to be honest.

 

This was Linebacker University at one point, and now it is an elementary school with our current linebackers looking at pictures of those who came before them. I think the link has been broken for a very long time by NFL standards.

3 divided by 11 is 27% right? I think we're saying the same thing otherwise