Guest StrahansGap Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 What does everyone think of the Red Sox now that the novelty has worn off? Let's face it, the mystique is gone and the smoke has cleared. The Red Sox are a better team than the Yankees, but why? Is it possible that the Sox have the revenue to now take over as the new Yankees? The reason so many people were intrigued by the Sox when they beat the Yanks a few years back was the fact that they were David and the Yankees were Goliath. The #1 reason (along w/ the 26 championships) why the Yanks were Goliath (according to Sox fans) was their payroll. Look at the payrolls now. $50,000,000 posting just to talk to Dice-K's agent......hardly David! Someone should tell Schilling that his prescious Red Sox are turning into something that people loathe. Discuss... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeef2 Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 The basic logic of your argument is flawed. Nobody saw the Sox as David to the Yanks Goliath. People were intrigued because a.) The Sox hadn't won in 86 years and b.) No team had ever choked up a 3-0 lead before. As for this year, the Sox are drifting further away from the Yankees in terms of payroll, not closer. Honestly, by looking at the title of your post, I thought you meant that they're choking in the postseason (though I don't see it that way either- Tampa's just the better team thus far), and that's what makes them the new Yankees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShocker Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 tonight reminded me that they're NOT the yankees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMFP Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 The Red Sox will need to win the World Series three more times before they can be compared to the Cardinals, much less the Yankees. http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/history/postseason/...ure=club_champs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeef2 Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 tonight reminded me that they're NOT the yankees True. The Yanks don't stick around 'til game 7 anymore. Come to think of it, they haven't even played in a best-of-seven series in four years. Yeesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillSmackPapa Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Nah, the Yankees have 26 world championships while the Red Sox have like 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShocker Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 True. The Yanks don't stick around 'til game 7 anymore. Come to think of it, they haven't even played in a best-of-seven series in four years. Yeesh. i was talking in reference to a "dynasty." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest StrahansGap Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 I guess I should have worded this better. It was an honest question and didn't want to pick any fights. I just think the Sox are becoming exactly what they (and everybody else) always hated the Yankees for. Just think that there is a double standard. The Sox only have a few homegrown players (pedroia, youk, lester, varitek) coupled with a skyrocketing payroll which I think are the REAL reasons why the rivalry is dying if not dead already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LorfTVP Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 I guess I should have worded this better. It was an honest question and didn't want to pick any fights. I just think the Sox are becoming exactly what they (and everybody else) always hated the Yankees for. Just think that there is a double standard. The Sox only have a few homegrown players (pedroia, youk, lester, varitek) coupled with a skyrocketing payroll which I think are the REAL reasons why the rivalry is dying if not dead already. Hmm, no, you've got it all wrong. The Sox now have more homegrown players than ever because, ever since the new ownership came along, the Sox have steered away from the free agent market and trading away the farm system. It's the Yankees who are losing out on homegrown players, which was what they rode through their championship years. The Red Sox payroll has stayed consistent for a while, fourth in the majors this year, still one of the highest though, while the Yankees payroll has skyrocketed past 200 million. The Yankees are shedding a lot of contracts this year but that just means they have more money to spend this offseason, along with the revenue from a new stadium. The reason the rivalry is at risk is because A. The teams are more about respect now after the Red Sox finally beat the Yankees and less about the excitement of underdog vs. top dog and B. The Yankees have sort of sucked recently. Homegrown Sox: Jonathon Papelbon, Jon Lester, Manny Delcarmen, Justin Masterson, Jed Lowrie, Dustin Pedroia, Kevin Youkilis, and Jacoby Ellsbury. With contributions this season from Brandon Moss, Jeff Bailey, Jonathon van Every, George Kottaras, Joe Thurston, Michael Bowden, Devern Hansack, Craig Hansen, Bryan Corey, David Pauley, and Charlie Zink. Some of the aforementioned may have been minor league journeymen...but I'm sure most are from the system the whole way through. We got Varitek from the Mariners, along with Derek Lowe, in one of the most lopsided trades in baseball history for Heathcliff Slocumb. And the beauty of a stocked system is that now, instead of depleting our farm system with a trade, we can trade from a position of strength, especially with the number of pitchers in the works. What we lack is a power hitting prospect after Lars Anderson, who is still years away. Truth is,the Red Sox have become a behemoth but that's through farm and payroll, not payroll alone, which is what people hated you for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullsOnParade Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 LOL you call what Craig Hansen did this year a contribution? I stopped reading after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest StrahansGap Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Found an article on HGT (Home Grown Talent) that I found very interesting. Keef, contributions were made by the Red Sox' waterboy too. I'm talking in the present. "Contibutions" made by the players you mentioned were merely try-outs for the majors. Didn't help nor hurt the team in any way. http://www.randompolitic.com/2008/04/02/ho...ts-and-yankees/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeef2 Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Keef, contributions were made by the Red Sox' waterboy too. I'm talking in the present. "Contibutions" made by the players you mentioned were merely try-outs for the majors. Didn't help nor hurt the team in any way. http://www.randompolitic.com/2008/04/02/ho...ts-and-yankees/ That was Lorf citing those players, not me. However, the Sox did get major contributions this year from 8 players that came up through their system (Lester, Papelbon, Pedroia, Youk, Masterson, Delcarmen, Ellsbury, Lowrie), and more than just a handful of games from from Moss & Hansen (before they were traded), and Buchholz. Their farm system is stocked. Your contention that the Sox payroll is "skyrocketing" (which suggests spiraling out of control), again, couldn't be more wrong. It has held steady now for the last few years, and no matter what they spend this offseason, Manny, Schilling, and at least a big chunk of Varitek's salaries come off the books. As for the rivalry, like Lorf said, I think it is what it is- the regular season games are still big, but they're not like playoff games, and the two teams haven't met there in 4 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxi-xxv Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Its funny, if it were 1967(and we had the internet then) the talk would be how the creation of the amateur draft and the ability of the SOX(or any team) to get good players because of this has made them become like the Yankees. Its ironic, really before the draft was implemented the Yankees dynasty was decades long, draft was implemented and it directly correlated to the fall of the great Yankees dynasty's of what was really almost 40 years at that point. Free agency started and a case can be made that again the Yankees utilized the system in place to become better then everyone else(altough I still contend the 96-2001 Yanks teams were more about homegrown talent than free agency). At the very least in the late 70's the Yankees went from 12 year dormats to champions at least in part because of free agency. Now we have revenue sharing, again like the draft a process implemented for more "competive balance"(this includes the spending of teams like the SOX and Mets and Dodgers and Angels etc)and it in a way like the draft did, lessens the Yankees talent pool(or any of these high payroll teams). Here is the bottom line, all these teams are going to have high payrolls, 180 mil 130 mil what is the diffference. Mets had a 130 million dollar payroll and could not find an adequate LFer or relief pitcher all year, in reality the 130 means shit. Its about building your talent and being able to keep it. Two things that IMO the draft and now revenue sharing allow ALL teams to do. You want to overspend for shit, thats on the team. Develop good players, you now have the cash to keep them and should not cry when a large market team signs them. You are the Mets(yanks sox whoever)do not cry about another high market team that wins, its not their fault they spend their money better than you do. As for the SOX, they IMO have a nice mix of homegrown guys in Pedroia, Youklis, Ellsbury etc combined with some good free agents and trade guys tht have made them a good team, very similar to what the Yankees were a decade ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LorfTVP Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Found an article on HGT (Home Grown Talent) that I found very interesting. Keef, contributions were made by the Red Sox' waterboy too. I'm talking in the present. "Contibutions" made by the players you mentioned were merely try-outs for the majors. Didn't help nor hurt the team in any way. http://www.randompolitic.com/2008/04/02/ho...ts-and-yankees/ Seriously, you can't use this as an argument. The author compiled these lists before the baseball season started and is only considering 15/25 players on the 25 man roster. Meaning, that he left out numerous contributors who were there all season. He admits his extreme Yankee bias as well. In addition, he purposely took out the best out of the 1b/DH combination to fit the Mets in and take away Kevin Youkilis from the calculations. Not trying to bash the Yankees here, but trying to bash this biased interpretation of Home Grown Talent off of a small sample size. Do you want to do this HGT test for real now that the season is over for all intents and purposes? Alright. What do you think sounds good, 50 IP for a pitcher and 250 ABs for a player, okay? And to be considered "home grown", they're either drafted by the team or have been in their organization for...three years. Red Sox Home Grown Talent - 10 Players (All except for Varitek drafted by the Sox) Dustin Pedroia - 653 AB Kevin Youkilis - 538 AB Jason Varitek* - 423 AB Jed Lowrie - 260 AB Jacoby Ellsbury - 554 AB Jon Lester - 210.1 IP Jonathon Papelbon - 69.1 IP Manny Delcarmen - 74.1 IP Justin Masterson - 88.1 IP Clay Buchholz - 76 IP ------------------------------------------------------ New York Yankees Home Grown Talent - 9 Players (Not counting Posada, Hughes, Kennedy who didn't "contribute") Robinson Cano - 597 AB Melky Cabrera - 414 AB Derek Jeter - 596 AB Andy Pettite - 204 IP Darrel Rasner - 113.1 IP Joba Chamberlain - 100.1 IP Chien-Ming Wang - 95 IP Mariano Rivera - 70.2 IP Jose Veras - 57.2 IP (Signed as a Minor League FA in 2006) Edwar Ramirez was received in a trade in 2007. ----------------------------------------------- New York Mets Home Grown Talent - 6 Players David Wright - 626 AB Jose Reyes - 688 AB Aaron Heilman - 76 IP Mike Pelfrey - 200.2 IP Joe Smith - 63.1 IP John Maine - 140 IP (Came over in 2006 trade with the Orioles) And for whoever laughed at Craig Hansen's "contributions", he contributed 30.1 innings to Philip Hughes' 34 and Kennedy's 39.2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest StrahansGap Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Whatever the case may be, if and when the Sox beat the Yankees in an important game next year (playoffs), there will be NO stories of them bringing down the mighty Yankees. It just will not be a big deal because they share the top payroll bracket with 2 or 3 other teams including the Mets. The same with the Yanks. If they pick up Sabathia, Burnett and Texeira and win it all...it just won't matter...nobody will care. Go D-Rays! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeef2 Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Whatever the case may be, if and when the Sox beat the Yankees in an important game next year (playoffs), there will be NO stories of them bringing down the mighty Yankees. It just will not be a big deal because they share the top payroll bracket with 2 or 3 other teams including the Mets. You don't think that might have just a little to do with the fact that the Yankees aren't mighty anymore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest StrahansGap Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 You don't think that might have just a little to do with the fact that the Yankees aren't mighty anymore? No. Because you cut off my last two sentences. They will be mighty again and when they start winning again, it won't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LorfTVP Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 The worst part about thoroughly shooting down arguments through statistics is that they're never acknowledged. :brooding: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullsOnParade Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 And for whoever laughed at Craig Hansen's "contributions", he contributed 30.1 innings to Philip Hughes' 34 and Kennedy's 39.2. Who the hell marks contributions by IP? Livan Hernandez pitched 150 or so innings for Minnesota this year... Great contribution right? No, his ERA and WHIP were astronomical, as were Hansen's. I never said Hughes or Kennedy contributed this year... Any Yankee fan will tell you they absolutely did not because they stunk. Same goes for Clay... dude had a few solid starts to begin the year but obviously wasn't ready to pitch. Its very dubious when you use these guys in your arguments to applaud the Red Sox minor league system. Just because a team was stupid enough to keep giving a player from their system chances through ABS and innings does NOT mean they contributed positively to the team.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LorfTVP Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 Who the hell marks contributions by IP? Livan Hernandez pitched 150 or so innings for Minnesota this year... Great contribution right? No, his ERA and WHIP were astronomical, as were Hansen's. I never said Hughes or Kennedy contributed this year... Any Yankee fan will tell you they absolutely did not because they stunk. Same goes for Clay... dude had a few solid starts to begin the year but obviously wasn't ready to pitch. Its very dubious when you use these guys in your arguments to applaud the Red Sox minor league system. Just because a team was stupid enough to keep giving a player from their system chances through ABS and innings does NOT mean they contributed positively to the team.. I was using that argument solely to point out the "contributions" of home grown players between the three teams. If you want to start judging the use of that word as positive or negative contributions, that's fine, but contributions in this case is whether or not they played a significant amount of time with the team, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullsOnParade Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 so if a team calls up its entire AAA team to play every game and pitch every inning that means they have a good minor league system because all the players on their team were from within the organization? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest StrahansGap Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 so if a team calls up its entire AAA team to play every game and pitch every inning that means they have a good minor league system because all the players on their team were from within the organization? No. The team that wins with mostly homegrown players as opposed to a team with players that were mostly bought are usually a team that is favored more by the general public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullsOnParade Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 yes i realize that... I was proving a point in my response. It does not matter how many homegrown players a team simply has, it matters how GOOD their homegrown players perform in helping that team win games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShocker Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 i couldn't get over when one of my friends (a red sox fan) after they lost to the rays said, "at least i can take solace in the fact that we just basically lost to our 2010 roster." i later found out this was a reference to bill simmons' article about game 5. some of them really just don't get it do they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LorfTVP Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 i couldn't get over when one of my friends (a red sox fan) after they lost to the rays said, "at least i can take solace in the fact that we just basically lost to our 2010 roster." i later found out this was a reference to bill simmons' article about game 5. some of them really just don't get it do they? Those aren't true Red Sox fans though. We're not supposed to forget all the misery of the past just because we've had a good recent run and are primed for more. This Red Sox team is going to stick to the farm system and free agency when necessary but the important thing is the emphasis on farm. Seriously, if you can't draft and produce good players on your own, what hope do you have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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