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Paul Perkins


Iceman_NYG

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I just mean the talent is so skewed in college ball.

I use future hall of famer Ramses Barden as an example, looking at his college highlight tapes he looked like the next Randy Moss, but it's easy to catch a ball when the next tallest guy on the field is a 5'7 CB.

 

It's why I hated the idea of drafting Tredwell in the first round, everything I've seen of him in college was the CB/Safety fucking up on some play and him standing wide open in the end zone, but scouts still had a first round grade for the guy.

 

I dunno it's why I'm at home and JR and CO get to fuck up fix the Giants.

BiC I posted this pre-draft re: Treadwell on the other site:

 

he played 8 games against at least average or better pass defenses. Those games were against 'Bama, Vandy, Florida, Texas A&M, Auburn, LSU, Mississippi State, and Fresno State. In those games, he averaged 5.375 receptions for 78 yards and 0.5 TDs.

 

Against very bad pass defenses, which were against New Mexico State (ranked 120th out of 128 teams), Memphis (107), Arkansas (118th), and Oklahoma State (95th), he averaged 8.75 catches, 120 yards, and 1.75 TDs. Put another way, 7 of his 11 TDs came against these 4 terrible teams. 42% of his yardage total came in these 4 games (13 total games played). More than half of his receptions came in these 4 games... all this against terrible, bad, awful pass defenses.

 

And I'm not including the Tennessee-Martin game in these individual game stats because not a Div I game and he probably didn't even play the whole game, first game of the year, but he only went for 4-44-0 in that game, as well.

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So a college player does better against poorer competition...that doesn't tell me much.

 

FWIW, I am also glad we didn't take Treadwell because (1) we didn't need to invest a first round pick in a WR when there were deeper needs elsewhere and (2) Treadwell, even when reported as the best WR in the draft, was said to be a 2nd or 3rd round WR in skillset, but was 1st round this year due to lack of WRs. So to me, you don't draft a guy at a position high simply because of a lack of quality at that position in the draft.

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So a college player does better against poorer competition...that doesn't tell me much.

 

FWIW, I am also glad we didn't take Treadwell because (1) we didn't need to invest a first round pick in a WR when there were deeper needs elsewhere and (2) Treadwell, even when reported as the best WR in the draft, was said to be a 2nd or 3rd round WR in skillset, but was 1st round this year due to lack of WRs. So to me, you don't draft a guy at a position high simply because of a lack of quality at that position in the draft.

He's was the #1 receiver in the draft according to people who are wrong.

 

The expectation for a first round wide receiver talent is that you put up big numbers against nearly all competition, including, and especially, top competition. Treadwell didn't do that. He feasted on bad comp which is what u want to see, but was pedestrian against better defenses. That's called a 3rd round talent.

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He's was the #1 receiver in the draft according to people who are wrong.

 

The expectation for a first round wide receiver talent is that you put up big numbers against nearly all competition, including, and especially, top competition. Treadwell didn't do that. He feasted on bad comp which is what u want to see, but was pedestrian against better defenses. That's called a 3rd round talent.

 

Right, but you know as well as I do that if 3rd round talent is the best talent there is in a given draft, it immediately becomes first round talent to talking heads, some teams, and lots of fans. I just want the Giants to be weary of drafting later round talent in earlier rounds, simply because of an overall lack of talent at that position.

 

I guess an easier way of putting it is that overall lack of talent at a given position artificially inflates the talent of the players who are in that position. This, because on some boiled-down level, teams draft for need.

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Yeah but I don't think that was the case. I thought before that Doctson was the top receiver in the draft. I felt Coleman was right there with him and would be the first off the board. I think Michael Thomas and Braxton Miller will both be better than Treadwell. I think Shepard will be better than Treadwell. So I never saw Treadwell in the elite group of receivers IN THIS draft. I did feel some vindication that both Doctson and Coleman went ahead of Treadwell, not gonna lie.

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Wasn't a bad draft. Just a lot of top prospects had injury or character issues. I think a lot of the problem with Apple is he doesn't fit an immediate need and they now basically now have three boundary press corners and still a need in the slot. Plus 10 probably was a bit too high for him. Decker would of fit an immediate need or you take VH3 who can play inside or out

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So Perkins and Goodson are the best players to have ever been drafted in the history of drafting by the Giants and Eli Apple is suckiest of suckballs? Is that the general opinion going around among the pundits?

 

Important thing is the fans love this draft class as much as every class that came before it, oh and we didn't draft a linebacker in the first.

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Wasn't a bad draft. Just a lot of top prospects had injury or character issues. I think a lot of the problem with Apple is he doesn't fit an immediate need and they now basically now have three boundary press corners and still a need in the slot. Plus 10 probably was a bit too high for him. Decker would of fit an immediate need or you take VH3 who can play inside or out

 

Not sure why you don't think Jenkins can't play nickel. And CB was an immediate need. If you need three corners for 60% of the plays and nearly 100% of the "money" downs, then you better have three good corners. We had two, and one of them has a propensity for hamstring problems.

 

Apple was a very good pick, guys. You simply don't find corners his size, with his movement ability and length, that has played as well as he has at one of the top 3 college football programs in the country, at 20 years of age. The truth came out after the draft... the pundits had it wrong, Apple was the best corner (after Ramsey/or if you consider Ramsey a FS) in this draft on multiple teams' boards. Those guys are the ones whose opinion ultimately matters... and he wouldn't have been available in a trade down past 13, and you need partners to trade down with willing to give you at least fair market... two to tango.

 

It's not like people haven't been critical of past drafts of this front office, even right after. This one has been pretty positive because there isn't much to critique. They got value in every round, mostly high character guys, all guys that are NFL ready players, or will be NFL ready quickly. They got guys with good-starter upside in every round. You don't see that too often.

 

When I looked at Hargreaves, if every play was 10 yards from the L.O.S. and in, he's probably the best corner in the draft. But he will struggle if asked to press a lot. He'll struggle with his back to the quarterback chasing very fast receivers, AND big receivers downfield. And because of that, his upside is somewhat limited. There are no such concerns with Apple.

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Not sure why you don't think Jenkins can't play nickel. And CB was an immediate need. If you need three corners for 60% of the plays and nearly 100% of the "money" downs, then you better have three good corners. We had two, and one of them has a propensity for hamstring problems.

 

Apple was a very good pick, guys. You simply don't find corners his size, with his movement ability and length, that has played as well as he has at one of the top 3 college football programs in the country, at 20 years of age. The truth came out after the draft... the pundits had it wrong, Apple was the best corner (after Ramsey/or if you consider Ramsey a FS) in this draft on multiple teams' boards. Those guys are the ones whose opinion ultimately matters... and he wouldn't have been available in a trade down past 13, and you need partners to trade down with willing to give you at least fair market... two to tango.

 

It's not like people haven't been critical of past drafts of this front office, even right after. This one has been pretty positive because there isn't much to critique. They got value in every round, mostly high character guys, all guys that are NFL ready players, or will be NFL ready quickly. They got guys with good-starter upside in every round. You don't see that too often.

 

When I looked at Hargreaves, if every play was 10 yards from the L.O.S. and in, he's probably the best corner in the draft. But he will struggle if asked to press a lot. He'll struggle with his back to the quarterback chasing very fast receivers, AND big receivers downfield. And because of that, his upside is somewhat limited. There are no such concerns with Apple.

Apple got beat deep quite a bit or grabbed when he was he about to. Jenkins have never really played the slot and is getting shutdown corner money. I know some will say if he's on the field w h at does it matter, but they most likely put him on the #1 WR. They have three aggressive press corners who will all play the same role. The Giants post draft were even looking at slot corners still

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Apple got beat deep quite a bit or grabbed when he was he about to. Jenkins have never really played the slot and is getting shutdown corner money. I know some will say if he's on the field w h at does it matter, but they most likely put him on the #1 WR. They have three aggressive press corners who will all play the same role. The Giants post draft were even looking at slot corners still

 

 

All great CBs grab. Apple did not get beat deep quite a bit... that's just not true. He allowed 14 catches against him all year for 104 yards and 0 TDs. How did he get beat deep?

 

I'm just going to leave this here, credit to Dave Te.

 

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http://nfldraftreport.sportsblog.com/posts/14394009/the-nfl-draft-report-s--by-the-numbers--series---before-an-nfl-general-manager-drafts-a-cornerback-in-the-first-round--they-might-want-to-check-out-these-numbers.html

 

Dave's scouting report is the most comprehensive I've seen in the industry. He had him as the top defensive back after Ramsey in this class (as did multiple NFL teams). He graded him a 7.96 on a 9 point scale. Star player is 7.0-8.0. Franchise player is anything over an 8. When you look at the numbers, the timed measurables, and his body type/length, it's no question that he was the right pick.

 

And again, the draft isn't just about the following season. You're signing that first rounder to be there for at least 5 seasons.

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All great CBs grab. Apple did not get beat deep quite a bit... that's just not true. He allowed 14 catches against him all year for 104 yards and 0 TDs. How did he get beat deep?

 

I'm just going to leave this here, credit to Dave Te.

 

0436629001458396539_filepicker.png

 

http://nfldraftreport.sportsblog.com/posts/14394009/the-nfl-draft-report-s--by-the-numbers--series---before-an-nfl-general-manager-drafts-a-cornerback-in-the-first-round--they-might-want-to-check-out-these-numbers.html

 

Dave's scouting report is the most comprehensive I've seen in the industry. He had him as the top defensive back after Ramsey in this class (as did multiple NFL teams). He graded him a 7.96 on a 9 point scale. Star player is 7.0-8.0. Franchise player is anything over an 8. When you look at the numbers, the timed measurables, and his body type/length, it's no question that he was the right pick.

 

And again, the draft isn't just about the following season. You're signing that first rounder to be there for at least 5 seasons.

I read the full scouting report from this guy on Apple and it doesn't match what I've read from anybody else or myself have seen. He was thrown at 67 times, gave up 14 receptions, had 9 pd and 1 interception. That adds up to 24, so where did the other 43 balls go? This why it's a flawed system. QB throws a bad ball it shouldn't get credited to Apple

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38 incomplete. Sorry dude, but if you're a corner matching up against your opponents best receiver every game and you don't allow a TD all year, that's pretty good. I do agree, trying to figure out the math is strange here. But it doesn't change the fact that he has the unteachable stuff the other corners don't have, and at 20 years old... his performance is atypical for a player with his youth.

 

But yeah, the math doesn't add up, but awesome production regardless, with elite speed at 6'0" with long arms and quick flippin' hips. I know you liked Jackson, and I did too, but Apple flips his hips quicker than Jackson, his change of direction is just better. He doesn't have a hole in his game like the other corners have.

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38 incomplete. Sorry dude, but if you're a corner matching up against your opponents best receiver every game and you don't allow a TD all year, that's pretty good. I do agree, trying to figure out the math is strange here. But it doesn't change the fact that he has the unteachable stuff the other corners don't have, and at 20 years old... his performance is atypical for a player with his youth.

 

But yeah, the math doesn't add up, but awesome production regardless, with elite speed at 6'0" with long arms and quick flippin' hips. I know you liked Jackson, and I did too, but Apple flips his hips quicker than Jackson, his change of direction is just better. He doesn't have a hole in his game like the other corners have.

He does flip his hips well and can shadow WR's. The timed speed was surprising because recovery speed doesn't show on tape especially if he gives cushion. This guy says he has good ball skills which I don't get. This is a very hard process because you have to factor in QB play, pass rush, opposing WR etc

 

Jordan Raanan wrote this to break down Apple

https://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2016/05/giants_eli_apple_comes_with_concerns_draft_pick_br.html

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