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Draft summary


Allstarjim

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OK, to be fair I'm sure there may be cases where both instances are true... a trade up being a calculated move and sometimes a move of desperation or panic.

 

But think about it, it all depends on the draft board, the remaining talent, how you have them graded, and the expected return of the desired player versus the expected return of the draft picks you give up to get that player.

 

In this particular draft, I thought that after Conklin went off the board, you let the draft fall to you or trade back. The Giants said they didn't get a good enough offer to trade back.

 

I can't speak to last year for sure, but I do think at times in the pass Jerry Reese has been overly inclined to trade up.

 

Regardless, saying that picking Apple was a panic-pick... that's just foolish for someone to say, and it comes from a place of complete ignorance, as does the follow up comment of him being a "fringe first-rounder." What draft scout or publication ever had Apple sliding to the 2nd round? By far, most did not. Ourlads had him as the 13th best player in the draft. NFLDraftScout.com (CBS prospect rankings) had him as the 20th ranked player in the draft.

 

Regardless, several NFL teams had him as their #1 corner.

 

In fact, I'd be willing to bet he's who the Bucs were targeting at 11 when they made the trade with the Bears. I don't believe the Bucs had Hargreaves as their #1. I believe they thought the Giants would take Hargreaves, as was the rumored contingency (or they would take Tunsil), and they would then be able to draft Apple.

 

Unless you are in the know, it's all speculation, but for Silva to wax on like he knows something is idiotic and arrogant.

 

I have listened to silva several times this year on the draft and he had never come off as someone who gossips or relys on hearsay. Usually a comment like that is derived from something or some source otherwise guys like him will die a slow death in this business. That said, its not a reach to say apple would have been there later and the giants could have traded down for him. I hope that apple works , i hope jerry has gotten this right, because i want him to succeed. I'm not going back on my linebacker comment because i think that's disgraceful and no one here can logically defend him on that.

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I have listened to silva several times this year on the draft and he had never come off as someone who gossips or relys on hearsay. Usually a comment like that is derived from something or some source otherwise guys like him will die a slow death in this business. That said, its not a reach to say apple would have been there later and the giants could have traded down for him. I hope that apple works , i hope jerry has gotten this right, because i want him to succeed. I'm not going back on my linebacker comment because i think that's disgraceful and no one here can logically defend him on that.

I thought Darron Lee would of been better. Even if they doubled down on LB with Goodson. Round three could of got a CB like Kendall Fuller

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OK, to be fair I'm sure there may be cases where both instances are true... a trade up being a calculated move and sometimes a move of desperation or panic.

 

But think about it, it all depends on the draft board, the remaining talent, how you have them graded, and the expected return of the desired player versus the expected return of the draft picks you give up to get that player.

 

In this particular draft, I thought that after Conklin went off the board, you let the draft fall to you or trade back. The Giants said they didn't get a good enough offer to trade back.

 

I can't speak to last year for sure, but I do think at times in the pass Jerry Reese has been overly inclined to trade up.

 

Regardless, saying that picking Apple was a panic-pick... that's just foolish for someone to say, and it comes from a place of complete ignorance, as does the follow up comment of him being a "fringe first-rounder." What draft scout or publication ever had Apple sliding to the 2nd round? By far, most did not. Ourlads had him as the 13th best player in the draft. NFLDraftScout.com (CBS prospect rankings) had him as the 20th ranked player in the draft.

 

Regardless, several NFL teams had him as their #1 corner.

 

In fact, I'd be willing to bet he's who the Bucs were targeting at 11 when they made the trade with the Bears. I don't believe the Bucs had Hargreaves as their #1. I believe they thought the Giants would take Hargreaves, as was the rumored contingency (or they would take Tunsil), and they would then be able to draft Apple.

 

Unless you are in the know, it's all speculation, but for Silva to wax on like he knows something is idiotic and arrogant.

2 questions (and I'm not saying I have a strong answer myself):

 

Is slot CB a higher need than OL?

Was there a legit OL at #10?

 

I hope Apple is great. But I feel like the Bears pulled our pants down.

 

And then when we skipped on Ragland, I flipped, even though Shepard seems like a solid pick.

 

I saw LB and OL as the two biggest needs.

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I have listened to silva several times this year on the draft and he had never come off as someone who gossips or relys on hearsay. Usually a comment like that is derived from something or some source otherwise guys like him will die a slow death in this business. That said, its not a reach to say apple would have been there later and the giants could have traded down for him. I hope that apple works , i hope jerry has gotten this right, because i want him to succeed. I'm not going back on my linebacker comment because i think that's disgraceful and no one here can logically defend him on that.

 

 

There's a guy on BBI, he posted about the Apple pick. Says he has a friend in the Rams FO. I found him to be very credible. He says they don't talk football much, when they do, it's about the Giants (not the Rams). After the pick, he texted him, and asked him how the Rams had him on their board. Guy says the Rams had Apple as the #1 corner on their board (they had Ramsey as a Safety). He went on to say that he didn't think that Apple would've been available in a trade down.... here is his exact reply with link:

 

scouts ranked him as the top cb on our board with ramsey higher as the top s. eli was part of our discussions before we traded up. several scouts said he might not last till 15 and don't think he would have been there if ny traded down

 

 

 

http://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=535116

 

 

I believe the Bucs were poised to take Apple as well. The players the Giants were linked to via beat writers were: 1. Leonard Floyd, 2. Jack Conklin, Myles Jack, and Vernon Hargreaves.

 

They knew the Bears were trading up for Floyd, and Conklin was off the board. Obviously, for the Bucs, they are sitting there thinking if they drop to 11, they think the Giants will either stop the Tunsil slide because they need a tackle (not realistic because the Giants are pretty conservative, especially in recent years with respect to character), take Jack, or take Hargreaves. That would then free them up to take Apple, the player they wanted anyway.

 

I've heard whispers (with less evidence), that the Bucs wanted Apple also.

 

My own personal analysis is that if you just go by how each of them played Amari Cooper in 2014, Hargreaves struggled a lot more than Apple did. Now consider Apple did that as a 19 year old. Apple is longer/taller, faster and younger than Hargreaves. According to at least two NFL teams, he was not a reach.

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So am I the only person who thinks the Giants selecting Perkins was because they ran out of players they actually scouted?

 

Well, I liked other players but they all had their issues. In particular, Jonathan Williams, RB Arkansas, I was very high on him. But he missed all of 2015 because of a broken foot he had to have surgically repaired. That's a pretty big medical flag to start your career with.

 

Alex Collins was another guy I liked, but he doesn't have the complete set of skills Perkins has, particular with respect to pass catching.

 

Jordan Howard was there also, another RB I liked, but really similar to Collins in that Perkins is more well rounded. Collins and Howard both are more between the tackles big backs, with limited pass catching and open field wiggle, both strengths of Perkins. I liked Perkins in that he has a lot of hard to find skills, but don't believe, for a non-tackle breaker, grinding type of back, that he had the plus speed you typically look for in running backs with his size and skill set. But he does do everything pretty well, and I believe he can be a three-down running back.

 

I fully expected the Giants to go RB in the 5th, because there was still tremendous value on the board at that position, and they did a good job getting one of those players. I actually expected them to go RB in the 4th, for the same reason. I felt that guys like Kenneth Dixon and Devontae Booker were 3rd round talents, even considering the de-valuation of the position group. Both of those guys went in the compensatory section of the 4th round, so they were off the board.

 

Perkins was very productive and you can make a strong case that he was a big value in the 5th. For me what he has to prove is that he can add a little strength, thicken up in those legs, and be effective between the tackles. A lot of Perkins' big runs I saw were on plays where the UCLA offensive line was just opening cavernous holes for him, and really dominating the POA. Obviously, that's not going to happen at the next level, so he will need to thrive in much tighter spaces. I respect a lot of guys that saw Perkins as an upside NFL running back.

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There's a guy on BBI, he posted about the Apple pick. Says he has a friend in the Rams FO. I found him to be very credible. He says they don't talk football much, when they do, it's about the Giants (not the Rams). After the pick, he texted him, and asked him how the Rams had him on their board. Guy says the Rams had Apple as the #1 corner on their board (they had Ramsey as a Safety). He went on to say that he didn't think that Apple would've been available in a trade down.... here is his exact reply with link:

 

 

 

http://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=535116

 

 

I believe the Bucs were poised to take Apple as well. The players the Giants were linked to via beat writers were: 1. Leonard Floyd, 2. Jack Conklin, Myles Jack, and Vernon Hargreaves.

 

They knew the Bears were trading up for Floyd, and Conklin was off the board. Obviously, for the Bucs, they are sitting there thinking if they drop to 11, they think the Giants will either stop the Tunsil slide because they need a tackle (not realistic because the Giants are pretty conservative, especially in recent years with respect to character), take Jack, or take Hargreaves. That would then free them up to take Apple, the player they wanted anyway.

 

I've heard whispers (with less evidence), that the Bucs wanted Apple also.

 

My own personal analysis is that if you just go by how each of them played Amari Cooper in 2014, Hargreaves struggled a lot more than Apple did. Now consider Apple did that as a 19 year old. Apple is longer/taller, faster and younger than Hargreaves. According to at least two NFL teams, he was not a reach.

Well regarding Hargreaves I'm glad we didn't take because I never liked him that much in the first place. But I wouldn't have gone corner either.

 

Jim, would you be worried if Reese had Ramsey listed high of your draft board but as a safety?. That's a bit bizarre. You think the Rams, if they had no choice and had to pick one as a corner, would have picked Apple over Ramsey?.

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Well regarding Hargreaves I'm glad we didn't take because I never liked him that much in the first place. But I wouldn't have gone corner either.

 

Jim, would you be worried if Reese had Ramsey listed high of your draft board but as a safety?. That's a bit bizarre. You think the Rams, if they had no choice and had to pick one as a corner, would have picked Apple over Ramsey?.

 

No, I think they would've picked Ramsey. Ramsey is looked at as a safety by some because he did line up there with FSU at times and was fantastic, but he would still be the top corner on the board.

 

I think the Rams viewed him as a safety because they felt that would be the position where he would most help their team. With the Jaguars it's at corner. But Ramsey would be the top corner or safety either way.

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Maybe like the typical Giants of the last 15 years, they felt their DL issues were solved and they bolstered the defensive backfield and decided to make do with the LBers they have.

 

Who else can they sign in FA? There still a ton of cap room left isn't there?

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Cap room can be carried over to next year should we not spend it now...but I do think that there needs to be some guys brought in for competition, particularly RT, DE, and LB. A 4th CB to go behind DRC, Jenkins, and Apple wouldn't be out of the question either.

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Top priority for me is OL. Yes, I'd love a LB but I'm hoping the drastically improved DL will keep the LBs cleaner, hoping Kennard stays healthy and it's not a glaring weakness. I have no such hopes for Marshall and Jerry.

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Well, I liked other players but they all had their issues. In particular, Jonathan Williams, RB Arkansas, I was very high on him. But he missed all of 2015 because of a broken foot he had to have surgically repaired. That's a pretty big medical flag to start your career with.

 

Alex Collins was another guy I liked, but he doesn't have the complete set of skills Perkins has, particular with respect to pass catching.

 

Jordan Howard was there also, another RB I liked, but really similar to Collins in that Perkins is more well rounded. Collins and Howard both are more between the tackles big backs, with limited pass catching and open field wiggle, both strengths of Perkins. I liked Perkins in that he has a lot of hard to find skills, but don't believe, for a non-tackle breaker, grinding type of back, that he had the plus speed you typically look for in running backs with his size and skill set. But he does do everything pretty well, and I believe he can be a three-down running back.

 

I fully expected the Giants to go RB in the 5th, because there was still tremendous value on the board at that position, and they did a good job getting one of those players. I actually expected them to go RB in the 4th, for the same reason. I felt that guys like Kenneth Dixon and Devontae Booker were 3rd round talents, even considering the de-valuation of the position group. Both of those guys went in the compensatory section of the 4th round, so they were off the board.

 

Perkins was very productive and you can make a strong case that he was a big value in the 5th. For me what he has to prove is that he can add a little strength, thicken up in those legs, and be effective between the tackles. A lot of Perkins' big runs I saw were on plays where the UCLA offensive line was just opening cavernous holes for him, and really dominating the POA. Obviously, that's not going to happen at the next level, so he will need to thrive in much tighter spaces. I respect a lot of guys that saw Perkins as an upside NFL running back.

 

Jolly good cup of tea, Perkins.

 

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Maybe like the typical Giants of the last 15 years, they felt their DL issues were solved and they bolstered the defensive backfield and decided to make do with the LBers they have.

 

Who else can they sign in FA? There still a ton of cap room left isn't there?

 

I agree with your analysis. It was a hell of a gamble, in a draft in which defensive linemen and linebackers were flying off the shelves in rounds 1-3.

 

Hankins and Harrison certainly make the Giants interior look great on paper. Giants can argue that an average middle linebacker is acceptable there....that appears to be the plan, because outside of special teams and the preseason, I don't see Goodson doing anything in 2016.

 

I'm not sold at all on JPP, and I really don't see the margin between Ayers and Vernon matching the money spent....hope I'm wrong there.

 

A guy like Floyd would have given the Giants an every-down defensive weapon... I have a very difficult time believing that Apple will come close to being the sort of impact player I expect Floyd to be with the Bears.

 

Shepard appears to be a very good prospect for a position that was not an issue in 2015, especially with Cruz returning to the roster, and with Dwayne Harris outplaying his contract. As with Floyd, I expect a great season out of Ragland, playing for a team that knows defense.

 

The other guys drafted 5th - 6th.... I like the TE they took....seems like a solid blocker, with great speed. Given his height, he could bulk up as a blocker, and yet still possess enough speed to give defenders issues. The RB they took seems like a reasonable flyer in the 5th round.

 

If you love a high-scoring, flag-football brand of football (and admittedly, that's the direction the NFL has chosen to go with their rules), the draft makes more sense.

 

This isn't Lawrence Taylor's NFL.....in time, I'll get over my bitterness and learn to love all those long TD throws to uncovered receivers by unpressured QBs.

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