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Jim Rice disses Jeter


Lubeck

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If Jim Rice says he was taken out of context about Jeter, I think the guy deserves a mulligan. Wouldn't be the first time the NY sports media twisted something to sell ink.

 

 

I agree man....a tempest in a teapot...but he can still kiss my ass on the locs....stick to his low fro and shut the fuck up... :cool:

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gee, ya think? :D he's not even the best shortstop on his own team.

Arod is/was without a doubt a better SS than Jeter. This isn't even a question. his offense is obviously better, and he was a much better defender at the position.

Since I figured the media would know better, I used to go along with that before I watched Arod and Jeter play side by side every day. There may be better defensive shortstops than Jeter, but Arod isn't one of them. And please don't tell me Arod is playing out of position, because I've seen his reaction time.

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Since I figured the media would know better, I used to go along with that before I watched Arod and Jeter play side by side every day. There may be better defensive shortstops than Jeter, but Arod isn't one of them. And please don't tell me Arod is playing out of position, because I've seen his reaction time.

I agree. I cringe when a ball is hit A-rod's way. He was a great shortstop when he was younger because he could hit 40 HR's and steal 40 bases. An offensive juggernaut. It wasn't because he was fleet of foot with extra range and Ozzie Smith hands.

 

When it comes to "best" in any position...EVERYTHING NEEDS TO BE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION. That means fielding, hitting, clutch performing, team leadership, changing the way the game is played, getting the team into post season, etc.

 

Granted....some people will say that "such and such" was the greatest shortstop because they remember some unreal play the guy made or perhaps that guy did cartwheels and backflips when leaving the field. Others will argue that the guy who hit the most homeruns was the best player, etc.. But that is being one-dimensional, and therefore cannot qualify as "best".

 

Jeter is the whole package. He is the heart and soul of the Yankees who have soared in compiling wins since he became part of the team. He's the first one greeting the player on the top of the dugout - he's the first to give young guys encouragement - he has made more plays in the air, falling away from first base, and slinging a sidearm strike to rob a sure hit (he's done this only about a hundred times) - he dives into the crowd and sacrifices his body - he plays hurt - he makes plays that no other player would because he anticipates the whole field and positions himself to finish a play (ala, backhand flip to get Giambi at home plate, or going into the outfield like yesterday to backup Johnny Damon and ends up throwing out Pedroia who was stunned getting thrown out at 3rd because there was no one to backup Damon if he missed the ball, etc), that's because Jeter never quits on a play - not even when it's not the shortstops area to cover. And Jeter's numbers do not lie. He surpassed Larkins numbers across the board in 5 less seasons than Larkin. And he's liable to join Pete Rose and Ty Cobb as the only players to get 4000 hits. His numbers and awards are outstanding. And man...he boinked Jessica Alba!

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Oh..oh are we letting the rumors fly that he is ...ahem....a lot more friendly with the ladies ....rather than getting friendly with them... :P

i don't know but i do know a couple of posters on this thread would be first in line were it true. never seen so much man crush.

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I agree man....a tempest in a teapot...but he can still kiss my ass on the locs....stick to his low fro and shut the fuck up... :cool:

 

I didn't stop to realize that Jim Rice was taking a shot at you, T.

 

Fuck him!!!!

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BTW, Bleedin', you know we're cool, but Jeter has absolutely zero chance of getting 4,000 hits. He's two seasons away from 3,000 and he's 35 years old. To get to 4000, he'd have to play at least another 7 years, but more likely 8, and hit well in all of those years. It's not going to happen. Jeter has been a great player for a long time. But he's not the greatest. He will go to Cooperstown for sure. But his numbers pale in comparison to Honus Wagner, for one. I'll give you that I believe he tops Larkin, Ozzie Smith, and Omar Vizquel, with the latter two good enough offensive players to compare to Jeter. I have Jeter well ahead of Trammel... and barely ahead of Robin Yount. He's ahead of HOFers Arky Vaughan and Luke Appling.

 

I think even Ernie Banks has a little bit of an edge over Jeter, and I still take Cal.

 

To me, Jeter is the 5th greatest shortstop of all time behind:

 

1. Wagner

2. A-Rod

3. Ripken Jr.

4. Banks

 

I barely put Ripken ahead of Banks and I may be wrong on that one. Still, Jeter is better than a LOT of HOF shortstops, and is one Yankee that even though I can't stand his smug face, I have ultimate respect for.

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I actually meant to say the latter 2 NOT good enough offensively to compare to Jeter. Thanks for catching that, though.

i knewgood offensively and omar vizquel didn't match. ozzie got much better offensively later in his career. i'm sure if he had a cushy batting order like jeter has been blessed with his entire career, he'd be even better.

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Wow...this thread is really bringing out the Jeter/Yankee haters. Seriously, put your hate for the team he plays for and him aside for a second and youre talking about a very, very special player. A player that an entire generation of people will be saying how lucky they were to watch for his entire career. I dont know if he is the greatest SS to ever play the game...but he is hands down one of the greatest to ever play the game period.

\

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I can't help but notice all the people knocking Jeter are fans of teams that are not Yankees. Hmmm.....there's a surprise.

 

But.....to cut to the chase, let's at least compare stats. It's tough, because back in the 1800's when Honus Wagner played, it was a different style game. There were no video feeds of fielding plays, there were no radar guns to measure pitch speed, the slider wasn't invented yet (or the cutter, or the splitter, etc.), there was no "conditioning of players" or players selected from a pool of millions of conditioned players from around the world. Not knocking it.....just pointing out that had some of the heroes in baseball more than a hundred years ago, might not even make the roster of the Nationals by today's standards. But it is what it is.

 

Let's compare (I already put Larkin's numbers up on a previous post so I won't repeat myself):

 

1) Honus Wagner (17 years) 329 Batting Average, 3430 Hits, 101 Home Runs, (RBI's were yet to be a stat)

 

2) Cal Ripkin (20 years) 276 Batting Average, 3184 Hits, 431 Home Runs, 1695 RBI

 

3) Ernie Banks (18 years) 274 Batting Average, 2583 Hits, 512 Home Runs, 1636 RBI

 

4) Robin Yount (19 years) 285 Batting Average, 3142 Hits, 251 Home Runs, 1406 RBI

 

5) Omar Vizquel (20 years) 273 Batting Average, 2657 Hits, 77 Home Runs, 892 RBI

 

6) Luis Aparicio (18 years) 262 Batting Average, 2677 Hits, 83 Home Runs, 791 RBI

 

7) Luke Appling (20 years) 310 Batting Average, 2749 Hits, 45 Home Runs, 1116 RBI

 

8) Lou Boudreau (14 years) 295 Batting Average, 1779 Hits, 68 Home Runs

 

9) Ozzie Smith (18 years) 262 Batting Average, 2460 Hits, 28 Home Runs, 793 RBI

 

10) Derek Jeter (14 1/2 years) 317 Batting Average, 2701 hits, 222 Home Runs, 1059 RBI (and damn it, he boinked Jessica Alba! - that's as good (or better) than Dimaggio boinking Marilyn Monroe).

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Wow...this thread is really bringing out the Jeter/Yankee haters. Seriously, put your hate for the team he plays for and him aside for a second and youre talking about a very, very special player. A player that an entire generation of people will be saying how lucky they were to watch for his entire career. I dont know if he is the greatest SS to ever play the game...but he is hands down one of the greatest to ever play the game period.

\

 

Wow, I'm a Yankee hater and a Jeter disser because I said Jeter is the 5th best shortstop to ever play the game of baseball, a game with over 100 years of recorded history?

 

Could it be that the "Yankee haters" are actually capable of looking at his career objectively moreso than you homers? I think I acknowledged that he was one of the greats of all time when I put him in a class of Banks, Ripken, A-Rod, and Honus Wagner. I think if you're the 5th best shortstop ever, you're a pretty special player.

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1) Honus Wagner (17 years) 329 Batting Average, 3430 Hits, 101 Home Runs, (RBI's were yet to be a stat)

Dimaggio boinking Marilyn Monroe).

 

Per Baseball-reference.com, Honus Wagner had 1732 RBIs. 9 times he recorded over a 100 RBI's in a season, back when great players like Wagner only played in 140 something games or so a season. He also had 722 career stolen bases, and led the league in that category. And 101 career homeruns for his time was tremendous.

 

And Bleedin', don't even try and say that hitting back then was easier. First, the concentration of talent was much greater. Now, the major leagues are pretty diluted compared to what it was then. Second, spit balls, scuff marks, tobacco juice (which darkened the ball making it harder to see), and anything else the pitcher could do to the ball was legal, then, until 1920. From Wiki on the dead ball era:

 

The spit ball

The ball was also hard to hit because pitchers could manipulate it before a pitch. For example, the spitball pitch was permitted in baseball until 1920. Pitchers often marked the ball, scuffed it, spat on it, or did anything else they could to gain an advantage over the ball's motion. This made the ball "dance" and curve much more than it does now, making it more difficult to hit. Tobacco juice was often added to the ball as well, which discolored it. This made the ball difficult to see, especially since baseball parks did not have lights until the late 1930s. This made both hitting and fielding more difficult.

[edit]Ballpark dimensions

Many ballparks had big dimensions, such as the West Side Grounds of the Chicago Cubs, which was 560 feet to the center field fence, and the Huntington Avenue Grounds of the Boston Red Sox, which was 635 feet to the center field fence. The dimensions of Braves Field prompted Ty Cobb to say that no one would ever hit the ball out of it.

 

On homeruns:

 

Between 1900 and 1920, there were 13 occasions when the league leader in home runs had fewer than 10 home runs for the season, and just 4 where the league leaders had 20 or more homers.

 

Honus Wagner is a giant in the history of the game... a titan... a hall of famer among hall of famers. Jeter is an all-time great, but nobody, not NOBODY is in the class of Honus Wagner at shortstop.

 

 

BTW, Bleedin', you left off A-Rod in your list.

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I can't help but notice all the people knocking Jeter are fans of teams that are not Yankees. Hmmm.....there's a surprise.

could say the same thing about those praising -, nay worshipping him being yankee fans. and yes, you conveniently left out Arod. (a yankee, i might add)

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Per Baseball-reference.com, Honus Wagner had 1732 RBIs. 9 times he recorded over a 100 RBI's in a season, back when great players like Wagner only played in 140 something games or so a season. He also had 722 career stolen bases, and led the league in that category. And 101 career homeruns for his time was tremendous.

No doubt many (if not most - especially Yankee haters) will put Wagner on the top of the heap.

 

And Bleedin', don't even try and say that hitting back then was easier.

Let's see.....hmmm. Blacks weren't allowed to play. Hispanics were not allowed to play. Japanese....yeah right. There were almost no major college programs that developed baseball and very few high schools even played baseball - certainly not at a competitive level. In 1890, the population of the U.S. (only white Americans were allowed to play) was 62 million (minus 35 million females, 8 million men over 40, 14 million boys under 18, 7.5 million blacks, quarter million native American indians, etc.) and of course, baseball was played only in four or five states. The men (privileged few who got to play) smoked cigarettes and cigars in the dugout, never stretched out, never conditioned themselves, played drunk half the time, continued to pitch without relievers (Hell, Dizzy Dean pitched a double header once - his fastball nearing 60 mph by his 230th pitch (from an un-iced arm) and he still won both games, etc.

 

Now I love the nostalgia of baseballs beginnings. But by today's standards in which extreme-conditioned athletes of any color or origin from any nation in the world, who recieved life-long training in the most competitive environment while using proven technology to develop certain skills....just play a different game then was played back in the days before automobiles.

 

First, the concentration of talent was much greater.

That makes no sense whatsoever. When professional scouts around the world analyze conditioned players from a pool of millions, it is an advantage over the handful of teams around the northeast made up of men who liked the game.

 

Now, the major leagues are pretty diluted compared to what it was then. Second, spit balls, scuff marks, tobacco juice (which darkened the ball making it harder to see), and anything else the pitcher could do to the ball was legal, then, until 1920. From Wiki on the dead ball era:

There was no advantage to the "spit ball". It was made illegal because it was so unsanitary. Guys with a baseball sized cud of tobacco would drool gobs of spit on the ball and throw it. The umpire and catcher would get the shit in their eyes and if the batter hit the ball, the fielder would get tobacco spit all over him when he caught the ball. It became so disgusting that they finally outlawed it. Regardless, a 65 mph spitter could be hit by most high school kids while a Ron Guidry slider, or a Fernando Valenzuela screw ball, or a Nolan Ryan fastball, or a Bruce Sutter splitter, or a Mariano Rivera cutter makes good hitters look like girly men. It certainly would be interesting to watch Wagner, the Babe, etc., face guys like todays batters face, but of course.....we'll never see it so it's all what one wants to believe.

 

Honus Wagner is a giant in the history of the game... a titan... a hall of famer among hall of famers. Jeter is an all-time great, but nobody, not NOBODY is in the class of Honus Wagner at shortstop.

It would be interesting to see the old timers face today's pitching. I'm afraid the Babe and many others would be known by the average baseball fan. And as far as Jeter goes, he's half-black so he would never have been allowed to play the game back in the day when Honus Wagner and the Babe played.

 

 

BTW, Bleedin', you left off A-Rod in your list.

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No doubt many (if not most - especially Yankee haters) will put Wagner on the top of the heap.

 

 

Let's see.....hmmm. Blacks weren't allowed to play. Hispanics were not allowed to play. Japanese....yeah right. There were almost no major college programs that developed baseball and very few high schools even played baseball - certainly not at a competitive level. In 1890, the population of the U.S. (only white Americans were allowed to play) was 62 million (minus 35 million females, 8 million men over 40, 14 million boys under 18, 7.5 million blacks, quarter million native American indians, etc.) and of course, baseball was played only in four or five states.

 

There was also only 8-12 teams in the league.

 

The men (privileged few who got to play) smoked cigarettes and cigars in the dugout, never stretched out, never conditioned themselves, played drunk half the time, continued to pitch without relievers (Hell, Dizzy Dean pitched a double header once - his fastball nearing 60 mph by his 230th pitch (from an un-iced arm) and he still won both games, etc.

 

Bleedin', do you have any sources for this information or are you just exaggeratin'?

 

Now I love the nostalgia of baseballs beginnings. But by today's standards in which extreme-conditioned athletes of any color or origin from any nation in the world, who recieved life-long training in the most competitive environment while using proven technology to develop certain skills....just play a different game then was played back in the days before automobiles.

 

Yes, they also have scouting reports, superior equipment even body armor to protect themselves, personal trainers, supplements out the wazoo, team jets and multi-million dollar workout facilities, and lots of other advantages that players like Wagner didn't have. What Wagner had was pure natural ability, no need for batting gloves or special bats ordered by the dozens.

 

 

That makes no sense whatsoever. When professional scouts around the world analyze conditioned players from a pool of millions, it is an advantage over the handful of teams around the northeast made up of men who liked the game.

 

The pool is bigger. But so is the available roster spots. You have 30 teams and a hundred plus minor league teams. And that's just the major leagues. There are Japanese leagues, Mexican leagues, Dominican leagues, and South American leagues. It still stands, though, in the MAJOR LEAGUES, there was none better than Wagner.

 

There was no advantage to the "spit ball". It was made illegal because it was so unsanitary. Guys with a baseball sized cud of tobacco would drool gobs of spit on the ball and throw it. The catcher would get the shit in his eyes and if the batter hit the ball, the fielder would get tobacco spit all over him. It became so disgusting that they finally outlawed it. Regardless, a 65mph spitter could be hit by most high school kids while a Guidry slider, or a Fernando Valenzuela screw ball, or a Nolan Ryan fastball, or a Bruce Sutter "jewel" (his name for the split-fingered fastball), or a Mariano Rivera cutter makes good hitters look like girly men.

 

Surely you don't believe this. Of course it was an advantage. The pitchers softened the ball, marked and scuffed the ball, darkened the ball. Gaylord Perry would disagree with your assertion that it does not give an advantage to the pitcher. Bleedin', seriously... be reasonable here. I know you want to defend your guy, but saying stuff like this is beyond ridiculous. The spitball was banned because it was unsanitary... that just makes you sound silly, my friend.

 

It would be interesting to see the old timers face today's pitching. I'm afraid the Babe and many others would be known by the average baseball fan. And as far as Jeter goes, he's half-black so he would never have been allowed to play the game back in the day when Honus Wagner and the Babe played.

 

Are you saying that Babe Ruth and Honus Wagner would be average players if you put them in the game today? If that's your assertion, then there's no use continuing to debate.

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I forgot to mention that pitchers in Wagner's day had the benefit of throwing of a 15 inch pitcher's mound as opposed to a 10 inch pitching mound today. I've also read that pitchers in Wagner's day threw just as hard as today. Wagner himself once threw a baseball 403 feet in the air, which math geeks have converted to it being the equivalent of a 92 mph fastball. It stands to reason that if he was the hardest throwing player, he would've been a pitcher, not a shortstop, meaning that the pitchers of his day threw even harder. Most historians believe that Walter Johnson could throw upper 90's and even top 100 mph based on historical accounts and other evidence. Many players would remark that they didn't even SEE the ball go by it was thrown so hard.

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I can't help but notice all the people knocking Jeter are fans of teams that are not Yankees. Hmmm.....there's a surprise.

 

But.....to cut to the chase, let's at least compare stats. It's tough, because back in the 1800's when Honus Wagner played, it was a different style game. There were no video feeds of fielding plays, there were no radar guns to measure pitch speed, the slider wasn't invented yet (or the cutter, or the splitter, etc.), there was no "conditioning of players" or players selected from a pool of millions of conditioned players from around the world. Not knocking it.....just pointing out that had some of the heroes in baseball more than a hundred years ago, might not even make the roster of the Nationals by today's standards. But it is what it is.

 

Let's compare (I already put Larkin's numbers up on a previous post so I won't repeat myself):

 

1) Honus Wagner (17 years) 329 Batting Average, 3430 Hits, 101 Home Runs, (RBI's were yet to be a stat)

 

2) Cal Ripkin (20 years) 276 Batting Average, 3184 Hits, 431 Home Runs, 1695 RBI

 

3) Ernie Banks (18 years) 274 Batting Average, 2583 Hits, 512 Home Runs, 1636 RBI

 

4) Robin Yount (19 years) 285 Batting Average, 3142 Hits, 251 Home Runs, 1406 RBI

 

5) Omar Vizquel (20 years) 273 Batting Average, 2657 Hits, 77 Home Runs, 892 RBI

 

6) Luis Aparicio (18 years) 262 Batting Average, 2677 Hits, 83 Home Runs, 791 RBI

 

7) Luke Appling (20 years) 310 Batting Average, 2749 Hits, 45 Home Runs, 1116 RBI

 

8) Lou Boudreau (14 years) 295 Batting Average, 1779 Hits, 68 Home Runs

 

9) Ozzie Smith (18 years) 262 Batting Average, 2460 Hits, 28 Home Runs, 793 RBI

 

10) Derek Jeter (14 1/2 years) 317 Batting Average, 2701 hits, 222 Home Runs, 1059 RBI (and damn it, he boinked Jessica Alba! - that's as good (or better) than Dimaggio boinking Marilyn Monroe).

 

 

And it just so happens those people calling him the greatest just happen to be Yankee fans. :blink:

 

 

Edit: I mistakenly factored in this season into the averages for both players.

 

Jeter's average career, averaging out his career stats minus 1995.

 

AB: 605

H: 192

2B: 31

3B: 4

HR: 16

RBI: 75

SB: 21

BB: 61

SO: 102

BA: .317

TB: 278

Lifetime Fielding %: .976

 

 

Same for Michael Young minus year 2000

 

AB: 608

H: 183

2B: 34

3B: 5

HR: 15

RBI: 79

SB: 9

BB: 44

SO: 97

BA: .301

TB: 272

Lifetime Fielding %: .977

 

 

Young is the unquestioned leader of the team, and is without question the ultimate team player (switched positions twice). Won a gold glove last year at SS, and could very well win one this year at third base. He's leading in fielding % for anyone who has played at least 90 games, he's played 120 of 123 games.

 

He's won a batting title. 5 straight season with 200 + hits. (jeter has 6 with 5 more seasons playing). MVP of an all star game.

 

I'm really not trying to say Young is the best SS ever, I'm just saying jeter is comparable to another player in his era. He's a fantastic player, a class guy, but not the best ever. You have got to take into cosideration the market he plays in, and the fact he's a likable, good looking dude and the media loves him.

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I forgot to mention that pitchers in Wagner's day had the benefit of throwing of a 15 inch pitcher's mound as opposed to a 10 inch pitching mound today. I've also read that pitchers in Wagner's day threw just as hard as today. Wagner himself once threw a baseball 403 feet in the air, which math geeks have converted to it being the equivalent of a 92 mph fastball. It stands to reason that if he was the hardest throwing player, he would've been a pitcher, not a shortstop, meaning that the pitchers of his day threw even harder. Most historians believe that Walter Johnson could throw upper 90's and even top 100 mph based on historical accounts and other evidence. Many players would remark that they didn't even SEE the ball go by it was thrown so hard.

We have no way of knowing how hard pitchers threw back in the 1800's. But right now, the pool of pitchers is made up from millions of athletes from many countries where there are extremely competitive systems developing pitchers and hitters and what......we have maybe 1 or 2 players who can throw a hundred mph fastball? Yet, I'm supposed to believe that when there were 99.99% less players to choose from and of those .001%, a handful of young men who were not conditioned athletes and who never travailed through extremely competitive systems, etc..... that most of them could throw harder and better than pitchers from today? I just can't buy that. It doesn't even make a little bit of sense.

 

My dad graduated from a high school in the 40's where there weren't enough boys to field an entire team. Yet he swears up and down that they had a pitcher that could throw over a hundred mph and could hit a ball 600 feet. I love my dad, but I also know that there's a lot of nostalgia playing it's hand here. Everything was done better, harder, faster, and more perfect in the past. Conditioning of athletes, working ones way through extreme competition from the age 6, being selected over tens of thousands of other extremely conditioned athletes, brings out the best of the best, and that's a phenomena that didn't start until the 50's and 60's and didn't get perfected until the 80's.

 

Now I really don't like mocking the "good old days", but when an old-time pitcher threw complete games (sometimes every other day), and threw double-headers, and pitched 40 games a season on average - you can't convince me they were substantially better than today's pitchers and that they were throwing harder than today's pitchers. It's insane to even think that's possible.

 

And I love the tales of Babe Ruth, but can you picture a man with a huge beer gut, small arms, pencil thin legs, who runs stiff-armed like kids in grade school, who smoked more than 2 packs a day, drank to drunkeness every night, and who never stretched out before games and never excercised would come into today's game and tear it apart like a man among boys. There had to be some pretty low level pitching for him to have hit the way he did. He certainly wasn't dealing with 96 MPH sliders, followed by a changeup, followed by some chin music at 98 MPH, followed by another slider or cutter.

 

Regardless.....this is an old argument. There are people who believe that football players back in the days when they wore leather caps for helmets were far, far better players than today's players and there are people who believe that it was normal for unconditioned pitchers from the 1800's to throw harder, with better stuff than today's pitchers. It's like arguing "who would win in a fight?", a Saber-toothed tiger or a Lion. It's all speculation.

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And it just so happens those people calling him the greatest just happen to be Yankee fans. :blink:

 

 

Edit: I mistakenly factored in this season into the averages for both players.

 

Jeter's average career, averaging out his career stats minus 1995.

 

AB: 605

H: 192

2B: 31

3B: 4

HR: 16

RBI: 75

SB: 21

BB: 61

SO: 102

BA: .317

TB: 278

Lifetime Fielding %: .976

 

 

Same for Michael Young minus year 2000

 

AB: 608

H: 183

2B: 34

3B: 5

HR: 15

RBI: 79

SB: 9

BB: 44

SO: 97

BA: .301

TB: 272

Lifetime Fielding %: .977

 

 

Young is the unquestioned leader of the team, and is without question the ultimate team player (switched positions twice). Won a gold glove last year at SS, and could very well win one this year at third base. He's leading in fielding % for anyone who has played at least 90 games, he's played 120 of 123 games.

 

He's won a batting title. 5 straight season with 200 + hits. (jeter has 6 with 5 more seasons playing). MVP of an all star game.

 

I'm really not trying to say Young is the best SS ever, I'm just saying jeter is comparable to another player in his era. He's a fantastic player, a class guy, but not the best ever. You have got to take into cosideration the market he plays in, and the fact he's a likable, good looking dude and the media loves him.

Young is a good player to be sure. But in order to be called the "best", the numbers have to continue for 18 or more years. If Young keeps up his numbers for the next 9 or 10 years, then you are right.....he'll be up there in the order of "greatest". But he has a ways to go as he's only compiled 8 full seasons of ball.

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Jim...with all due respect, Cal Ripken kind of sucked. Well, sucked is kind of harsh, but he really only had one great season, 1991. I understand that he was one of the first power hitting shortstops and all, and by that I mean 25 homers a season, but he really wasnt that great, he just played a lot of games. Gamer? Yes Great player? hardly

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