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#1 mickeef2

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 06:39 PM

Manny will always be one of the all-time great Sox, and I've been a huge fan since day one despite all of the drama and goofiness. But this story sadly needs to end, and the sooner the better. If they could get something decent for him right now I'd pull the trigger, although it sounds very unlikely that anything is going to happen. If that's the case, the season is in peril. This has become too big a distraction, and it's come to the point where his production is not worth it anymore.

Nice job by the Yanks pulling it together. Still a long way to go, but these two teams sure look like they're headed in opposite directions.

#2 gateb

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 07:50 PM

what would you look for in a trade mick?

#3 mickeef2

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 08:12 PM

QUOTE (gateb @ Jul 27 2008, 03:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
what would you look for in a trade mick?


Well, the problem is they can't ask for too much because they're not in a great situation. While they do own his rights for the next two years if they wish, it's at 20 mil per year, which is very high for a guy with his declining numbers. Also, teams know they're desperate to get rid of him at this point. I hear the Phils and Mets could be interested, but I don't know what either of them would be willing to give up. If you could get them working against each other, that would help. However, he'd have to approve the deal, which would mean the new team ponying up a new contract. I'd bet he'd be looking for something in the range of 3-4 years at 12-15 million per. I don't think too many teams would be willing to do that.

#4 mickeef2

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 08:32 PM

ESPN is now reporting that Manny says he wouldn't block a trade to another team. However, his statement is a little vague (this is Manny we're talking about), and he could really mean that he wouldn't block a trade if the new team had a new contract worked out. Stay tuned.

#5 gateb

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 09:03 PM

i could see a deal between the mets and sox worked around heilman. use him as a setup man down the road and next year if you wish turn him into a starter.

it would definitely include a prospect or two but that could happen

#6 mickeef2

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 09:16 PM

QUOTE (gateb @ Jul 27 2008, 05:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i could see a deal between the mets and sox worked around heilman. use him as a setup man down the road and next year if you wish turn him into a starter.

it would definitely include a prospect or two but that could happen


Yeah, I was trying to think of deals with the Mets, but truthfully, I can't think of anybody I'd want that the Mets would be willing to part with. No thanks on Heilman. We have enough schizophrenic arms in the pen already, and we'd have no interest in turning him into a starter.

#7 gateb

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 11:47 PM

QUOTE (mickeef2 @ Jul 27 2008, 10:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah, I was trying to think of deals with the Mets, but truthfully, I can't think of anybody I'd want that the Mets would be willing to part with. No thanks on Heilman. We have enough schizophrenic arms in the pen already, and we'd have no interest in turning him into a starter.

when i think about it i dont really want manny that much either. itd be exciting and all but he'd want a longer deal when his knee is shaky. im not sure a team that is playing with as much fight as the mets are right now could use a guy who is renowned for dogging it on fly balls.

i wouldnt be completely against a deal but i hope we wouldnt give up too much

#8 xxi-xxv-xLii

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 11:52 PM

I do not need another aging hispanic on the Mets, no thank you. Great player, I will pass. Let the Phils get him and sign him long term, I will gladly take Pat Burrell off their hands.

#9 mickeef2

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 04:05 AM

3-5, 2 2B, 2R, 2 RBI. Nevermind. It was just Manny being Manny. smile.gif

#10 Herc

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 04:10 AM

maybe the mets will throw the whole farm system at the red sox to rectify their mistake of trading victor diaz aka the next manny ramirez

#11 LorfTVP

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 06:21 AM

I don't see any reason to chase him out of town. So things got ugly, and he has crossed a line, but I still wanna forgive and forget because he is still one of the best hitters of our generation and I would love to retire #24 in Fenway Park. His projected stats on the season are an amazingly steady 103 30 103 with a .302/.400/.531/.932. There's all this talk about declining stats but they're still at the top of the game. He's top 10 in pretty much every stat in the AL. A trade wouldn't make sense. We'd never get anything fair. Honestly, I really want to see a Red Sox hero type retire his number there. We haven't had one since Yazstremski and we won't have Clemens, Pedro, or Nomar filling that slot.

#12 Herc

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 06:54 AM

why not pedro?

#13 mickeef2

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 02:00 PM

QUOTE (LorfTVP @ Jul 28 2008, 02:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't see any reason to chase him out of town. So things got ugly, and he has crossed a line, but I still wanna forgive and forget because he is still one of the best hitters of our generation and I would love to retire #24 in Fenway Park. His projected stats on the season are an amazingly steady 103 30 103 with a .302/.400/.531/.932. There's all this talk about declining stats but they're still at the top of the game. He's top 10 in pretty much every stat in the AL. A trade wouldn't make sense. We'd never get anything fair. Honestly, I really want to see a Red Sox hero type retire his number there. We haven't had one since Yazstremski and we won't have Clemens, Pedro, or Nomar filling that slot.


I understand the sentimental angle, Lorf, because Manny's probably my all-time favorite, and he brought us two championships. The numbers are clearly declining, though, no matter how you slice them. He goes through too many dry spells now, whereas he used to be very consistent throughout the season. He also had an amazing start and has really tapered off since the first month of the season.

Regardless, it's about more than the numbers now. Fighting with teammates (never got the full story there, and maybe Youk was at fault, too), pushing down an old man (absolutely no excuse for that one), and taking days off (he may really be hurt, but the MRI was clean, he had been playing every day up to that point, and this was the Yankees coming into town- you gotta play hurt). I really believe what happened is that he got off to a torrid start, had his agent approach the team about picking up next year's option, got rebuffed, and became sour.

Either way you slice it, there's gotta be life after Manny, and we need to start planning for it now. It probably won't happen during this season, but he's clearly not gonna be here next year. The team has had it, and I can't say I blame them anymore.

#14 Ditto

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 04:50 PM

Angels may take him, or even Detroit.

#15 mickeef2

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 06:07 PM

QUOTE (Ditto @ Jul 28 2008, 12:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Angels may take him, or even Detroit.


Lots of teams would take him. They just wouldn't be willing to give anything of value in return, which is why it's unlikely he'll be traded.

#16 LorfTVP

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 12:07 AM

You need to retire with the Sox and then go into the HoF to have your number retired. Manny's gonna be the exact same price, if not cheaper, than the other options on the market and the Teixeiras and Hollidays of the world would cost a bundle. I think this is just one of those bumps in the road that we go through every season. People say it's gotten worse, but honestly, it's Manny. How do we fill in his slot? We need another power guy to replace him and there are very few options. Manny's only had one bad month in May and has lived up to his reputation every single other one. I hope this blows over.

#17 xxi-xxv-xLii

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 01:04 AM

QUOTE (LorfTVP @ Jul 28 2008, 08:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You need to retire with the Sox and then go into the HoF to have your number retired.


Carlton Fisk retired a Red Sox?

The Red Sox criteria is and always has been Hall Of Fame, yes and 10 YEARS PLAYING IN A RED SOX UNIFORM.

#18 mickeef2

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 01:36 AM

QUOTE (xxi-xxv-xLii @ Jul 28 2008, 09:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Carlton Fisk retired a Red Sox?

The Red Sox criteria is and always has been Hall Of Fame, yes and 10 YEARS PLAYING IN A RED SOX UNIFORM.


I think retiring with the Sox is one of the criteria, but I think they pulled some lame one-day contract thing with Fisk right before he retired to make that happen. They'd never do that for Manny (not the current ownership, anyway).

QUOTE (LorfTVP @ Jul 28 2008, 08:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You need to retire with the Sox and then go into the HoF to have your number retired. Manny's gonna be the exact same price, if not cheaper, than the other options on the market and the Teixeiras and Hollidays of the world would cost a bundle. I think this is just one of those bumps in the road that we go through every season. People say it's gotten worse, but honestly, it's Manny. How do we fill in his slot? We need another power guy to replace him and there are very few options. Manny's only had one bad month in May and has lived up to his reputation every single other one. I hope this blows over.


Sentimentality has nothing to do with this, Lorf. I've been the biggest Manny enabler there is, but even I'm fed up. Like many have said- He's not 40/130/.320 anymore, more like 30/100/.290, and there are lots of guys out there like that. He has whined, almost from the day he signed with the Sox, that he made a mistake, and has definitely made things difficult for the organization throughout his time with the team. Whether they finish out of the playoffs, or win the World Series, Manny's gone after this year, and you can't blame them for wanting to send him packing.

#19 mickeef2

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 01:08 PM

Lorf, you still want this guy around for the rest of the year?

#20 mickeef2

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 06:05 PM

QUOTE (mickeef2 @ Jul 28 2008, 10:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I really believe what happened is that he got off to a torrid start, had his agent approach the team about picking up next year's option, got rebuffed, and became sour.


Not to toot my own horn, but here's what Curt Schilling had to say today about the situation:

"I think there was, maybe there's some feeling on his part that if he did what he did last winter and he came out and had a monster first couple of months that they'd sit down and say 'OK we want to keep you here the next four years, let's get something done,' and it felt like to me that the second he realized that that was not an option, this just went straight downhill.""


#21 Ditto

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 11:25 PM

You got your wish. You are now the proud owner of Jason Bay. I don't know if he's as clutch as Manny, but his numbers are good, and I'm sure he'll hold down the runs allowed with his improved defense.

#22 Buck Murdock

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 11:35 PM

I love Manny!






in Dodger Blue. smile.gif






#23 mickeef2

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 12:08 AM

QUOTE (Ditto @ Jul 31 2008, 07:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You got your wish. You are now the proud owner of Jason Bay. I don't know if he's as clutch as Manny, but his numbers are good, and I'm sure he'll hold down the runs allowed with his improved defense.


Yeah, they had to do it. I didn't want to give up Hansen and Moss, but their hands were tied and they really had no choice.

#24 LorfTVP

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 05:46 AM

QUOTE (mickeef2 @ Jul 31 2008, 08:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah, they had to do it. I didn't want to give up Hansen and Moss, but their hands were tied and they really had no choice.


Oh well, what's done is done. Truth is though, we've been wringing our hands for a Manny replacement for some time and this trade at least relieves us of those worries. We won't have to jump into the Teixeira market or anything. Still, Moss, as much as I like him, was expendable in the Matt Murton/David Murphy mold, and Craig Hansen was taking too many lumps with us. I admit, every time I watch that devastating slider of his, I splooge a little...but combine that with an inability to control any of his other pitches and it leads to an undesirable situation. I wonder how we're going to deal with the void in the bullpen but this may or may not be addition by subtraction. Heck, I don't think he was around long enough to be one of the main spoons players in the bullpen, so at least they won't be left behind musically.

But yah, Jason Bay...not Manny, nowhere near as an intelligent or pure hitter as he is...but still a good, younger guy who can put up big numbers. We'll see how he gels, we'll see how Francona sets up the lineup...which is the big thing. Will Ortiz hit cleanup now? Then the Sox can go R-L-R-L-R-R with Pedroia, Drew, Bay, Ortiz, Lowell, Youkilis...and then whoever is feeling lucky out of the weaker C, CF, and SS positions.

This Ellsbury slump is quite a shame.

All in all...our hand was forced...we had to deal and we could've done a lot worse.

#25 mickeef2

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 01:44 PM

Great points all, Lorf. It wasn't that I didn't want to see Hansen, or even Moss, go, I just didn't want to use all of our chips in the same trade. Either way, they absolutely had to make this deal, other teams knew it, and they got held for ransom a bit. At least it's over.

My thinking on the lineup is exactly what you said. I think they need to shake things up here. Ortiz should be hitting cleanup now. He's the only logical choice. I don't know why they're so dead set on him hitting third. Ellsbury is absolutely screwing up the whole lineup. If he were even a serviceable leadoff hitter at this point we'd be in so much better shape. Then you could go:

Ellsbury
Pedroia
Bay
Ortiz
Drew
Youk
Lowell
Tek
Lugo

That's not a bad lineup. Not thrilled with Lowell hitting 7th, and he probably wouldn't be, either, but he's going through his usual 2nd half swoon.




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